Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[The Voice of Reason]

TANSTAAFL.

Beware software distributors bearing gifts.

 

[Orryn Emrys]

What exactly are the copy-paste limitations of the DRM format? Without the ability to use these functions liberally enough to enter necessary information into my campaign management software (in my case, DM Genie), it could seriously cripple the product's usefulness to me as a PDF. :\

 

[wedgeski]

...copyright has always been solely about encouraging innovation and new creation, as per the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) " ...to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."

Additionally, copyright violation was always a civil offense rather than a criminal one. Now, thanks to the efforts of BSA, RIAA, et al. to have the government do their bidding by lobbying and getting the NET act and the DMCA turned into laws, copyright violation is a criminal act.

Also, the term "piracy" is a misnomer - according to international law, piracy can only occur on the high seas...

You're right. But since I don't, unlike you it would appear, live in the 18th century, I'll continue to use these term as they has been adopted in contemporary language.

In any case, I think you missed my point or I didn't make it clear enough: it doesn't matter what the bottom line actually is on the costs of internet piracy, because the perceived threat is enough. Only time, and improved auditing and accounting, will truly tell. As it stands, opponents of digital rights protection will always say that piracy should just be a cost of sale; those who actually have money to lose will tend to say the opposite.

Retail operations already book the fact that they'll have a rough percentage of loss due to theft - many retail stores don't even prosecute shoplifters unless they are also employees because it costs more than just writing off the loss when they do their taxes.

And yet they go to extreme lengths to *prevent* the theft in the first place (electronic tagging, surveillance, store detectives, etc.). You can bet that if they could categorically remove that assumed loss from their balance sheet because of fool-proof anti-theft devices, they would. Neither does the fact that it's difficult to stop imply that they shouldn't *try* (as portions of the rest of your post appear to imply).

Also hard to get a grip around is the idea that "copying" is somehow theft - legal theory aside, if I leave you with the original, how can it be theft? How is downloading a copy off of the internet any different than photocopying a paper version from the library or giving your friend a tape of an album, other than ease of use? The argument that this represents a lost sale is fallacious because, debate aside, common-sense dictates that it represents someone who will never have purchased a copy or who will end up buying a legitimate copy.

As always, I was waiting for this. I can go for the 'it doesn't represent a loss of sale' argument, but asserting that it isn't, somehow, theft, simply because you can steal the item in question without the original owner losing possession is ludicrous. It is also, as it happens, the number one Case for the Defense trotted out by casual software pirates on the 'net.

If you download and gain any utility whatsoever from a PDF, when someone else has taken the honest route and paid the creator for their work, you are a thief. You are stealing intellectual property without rewarding the creator. You are presuming upon their hard work with little or no respect for the time and expertise that goes into creating it. And by doing so, you are contributing to the perceived threat of internet piracy and forcing companies like Malhavoc to consider DRM as a necessary evil. Don't believe me? This thread speaks for itself.

How would it feel to be told "you can't wear that shirt with those pants" (wives notwithstanding)? How about "you can only drive your car twice a week and you have to use Getty gas"?

Bathing in the glorious light of the free market, I would laugh in the face of the vendor and take my money elsewhere. But that's not what you're miffed about. You're miffed that the car salesman is the only shop in town who sells that car you want so badly, and is leveraging his position to force you to use it only on Tuesdays and Thursdays. That's just tough luck. Either live with it, or don't buy it. But do *not* sneak into his lot after midnight, steal his car, and pretend your actions are justified.

I freely admit that I've gotten pdfs of many rpg titles off of the net - but I also own a paper version of every one of them. The paper versions have good "hand feel," but when I'm not at home and need a quick rules lookup or want to print out disposable map copies, I use the pdf.

Good for you! That's completely irrelevant though, aside from the fact that your download encourages the guys who PDF and freely (or otherwise) distribute intellectual property in the first place. I did it myself with the D&D core rule books a couple of years ago though, so I have no legs to stand on there.

 

[Henry]

Wedgeski, I'm pretty sure 3catcircus lives in the 21st century. (When he's not playing D&D at least.) Insults really aren't called for.

And I said this in another thread, and I'll repeat it here: Let's please be civil to fellow posters.

I know this is a new deal, and some see it as a raw deal, and emotions can run high, but I'd like to remind us we're all here to discuss, not fight.
Thank you.

Henry, Moderator

 

[Vascant]

First: I do not enjoy a website looking thru my computer to see if I have something installed or not. Comes with the MYOB's style of thought. If they want to know, just ask me then I have the right to decide if I wish to answer or not.

Second: If I register a product or not is also my business, I normally choose not to because that usually only leads to new and improved spam letting me know of things that I really didn't care about. Have a new version, great. I will find out when I need it not when you decide I need to know.

Third: Going exclusive, just ignorant. Seems more like a dog on a leash to me, imagine if WotC remained that way and we never had D20 or OGL. Oh the dark ages of D&D, how I remember them.

Fourth: I see no reason to change from RPGNow, they have provided me with quality serviced for I think over 2 years, maybe 3 now. I have spent well over $2000 there (*smirk* ask my wife) and not once I am lucky to say have I felt the service was anything but fantastic. (Please note, I do not work for RPGNow nor have anything for sale on their website)

Fifth: For whatever reason some publishers are changing, thats your business, you are taking a risk of losing customers because I know for myself, you have lost me as one. Not to say I will not pick something up at my FLGS but PDF's I do not see a reason to change my current spending habits. My reason for this is simple, if me as a customer mattered or was important to your business, then you would have asked me something to the effect would this change effect my desire for your products. I do wish you luck though and hope to see you return to where I am spending my money.

 

[Eridanis]

The issue of copyright infringement obviously has some relevance to this thread. However, extended discussion of that should be left to another thread; let's keep the focus on the topic, please.

 

[Belen]

TANSTAAFL.

Beware software distributors bearing gifts.

No doubt. It sounds like DRM tracks your use of the software. Basically, what they're saying is that we do not own the PDF book that we BUY. Instead, our purchase only leases the book from the vendor.

What really gets me, is that this will not affect people who KaZaa in the slightest. Those jerks will just break the code and get the type of use of the product that honest people are denied.

You know, the other good thing about RPGnow is that you can get the download link for a product you purchased anytime, so loss of product does not harm you. Now, if my PC crashed etc, then I will have to buy the book again! I am sure that DriveThru will not recognize prior purchase of the book (not that I want to buy using the Nazi restrictions). Heck, I'll bet that you cannot get the download link again after the fact at the new place, I have never known WW to be that nice.

 

[wedgeski]

Wedgeski, I'm pretty sure 3catcircus lives in the 21st century. (When he's not playing D&D at least.) Insults really aren't called for.

My apologies to you and 3catcircus...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is bad news for me

I can't access to Acrobat site for some reason. I can't download Acrobat 6 and I can't activate Acrobat E-Book Reader either - which I had to spend a week of web searches to find somewhere other than on Acrobat's website. As a result I won't be able to buy the Book of Iron Might, so I will have no choice but to buy it in book format.

I had to buy a product from Amazon twice because of this Acrobat problem, and of course you can't refund e-books. (Amazon wouldn't even let me download the product without Acrobat 6. It's not like I could open it with my Acrobat 5.) I had to get Microsoft e-book reader to do open up the product.

As other people have mentioned, e-books can be a pain. (I saw Acrobat E-Book reader at a friend's house... it's better than Microsoft but still a pain.)

So I guess my position is: make it available in Microsoft E-book format to get me to buy. (Even so, I don't know why the e-book has to look so different from Acrobat Reader.)

 

[Thanatos]

While I am going to avoid the DRM debate save to say my stance is this: It is my personal belief DRM is just another way to screw the consumer why crying protection against piracy.

While I know this counts for nothing, I have purchased every single PDF Malhavoc has ever released and even bought the 3.5 update to the BOEM's.

I have used e-book/adobe acrobat activation and such before...I deleted the e-book I legitimately purchased and went to a lower version of acrobat. It was a pain to use...it was a pain to try and transfer the secure pdf around because I move things between my 3 computers and pda...it is a pain to have to register my pc's with adobe (I hate that...refuse to do it)...

This is going to be another one of those "I bought the game legitimately, but the security forces me to find a copy-protection breaker so I can actually utilize my product effectivelyor (ala NWN) use my game at all." and that is too much trouble, I'd rather just spend my money on another product that doesn't give me headaches.

So, sadly, I will no longer be supporting Monte and Sue with my purchases once the switchover is complete.