Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[Grazzt]

Okay, this thread has so many statements in it that are just wrong that it is, well, rather amazing. Last time I checked the sky wasn't falling (although it is raining pretty hard here).
I am not going to start debating people's entrenched opinions but I do want to say one thing. NONE of the people publishing under the SSS/WW "umbrella" are obligated to release pdfs through "DTRPG." It is an option that these publishers were given. I sincerely doubt that Monte was a special case with WW "thugs" showed up at his house and twisting his arm. Hey, I could be wrong, but I rather doubt it.

WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.

The vitriol in many of the posts here is rather impressive. I can't forsee publishers wanting to wade through 12 pages of "the sky is falling" and "the evil empire is coming" posts. Some people have wondered why publishers haven't come to this thread to answer "questions." I see few questions, just vitriol and personal attacks aimed at the "evil" publishers, or the "evil" DTRPG, or the "evil" adobe/DRM, etc.

C'mon now Pat...the sky is falling...didn't ya get the memo?

 

[3catcircus]

WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.

Being a separate corporate entity has only one business meaning - that sueing one company won't involve sueing the other (a la RICO statutes). Being a separate corporation means squat when the people who own and manage both companies are the same people. Don't be obtuse.

 

[Goobermunch]

Now, here is some more vitriol. If you are a software pirate, you are a thief. You are no better than the robber who breaks into my house and steals my TV set. You can try to justify it to yourself in any way you choose, but deep down, you know that what you are doing is WRONG. And if you don't recognize that stealing is wrong, then you are a sociopath who should be locked up for a long, long time.

While I agree with your point that intellectual property is still property and that the theft of it is wrong, your analogy is fundamentally flawed.

When you have your TV set in your home, the manufacturer no longer has possession and control of it. When I break in and steal it, you no longer have possession and control.

If I take your intellectual property, the manufacturer, you, and I all have possession of it. However, to the extent that any of us possesses it, none of us has exclusive control of it.

In this regard, then, the theft of intellectual property is a lesser wrong than theft of tangible property. My theft of it does not deny anyone the possession of the property.

At the same time, this reveals the problems with DRM and attempts to control intellectual property. They abrogate the fundamental concept of ownership-- exclusive possession and control.

Ergo, we need to develop new conceptual structures to deal with ownership of digital information. Perhaps something like a tax on digital media to reimburse publishers who see decreased earnings due to piracy would work. I'm not sure.

What I do know is that a person who engages in intellectual property theft probably isn't a sociopath purely on that basis. There are clear rational distinctions between tangible and intellectual property. Further, any punishment for stealing intellectual property ought to be lower than the theft of an equally valuable piece of tangible property.

--G

 

[dcollins]

This might be late getting into the discussion but here goes...

I've bought several PDF products for D&D in the past few years (I guess about a half-dozen). I bought Monte's "Demon God's Fane" and really enoyed it. In a thread about a year ago I listed a set of bullet points in favor of PDFs over print -- such as ability to copy sections into my adventure notes, edit them, etc.

I abstain on the issue of what particular online distribution site a publisher uses, that's really neither here-nor-there for me.

However, as a working computer scientist, I will never use or purchase Digital Rights Management (DRM) documents, ever. I need to move to different machines, I need to print, I need to make backups, I need to re-install systems, I cannot expose my computer to potential security threats like having unknown software lock up some parts of my data. That's totally unacceptable.

 

[Berandor]

(This is a cynical parody for your amusement only)
(snip)

That is the worst analogy I have ever read. And that's saying something, including some of the analogies in this very thread.

Sorry, I failed my humor check.

 

[francisca]

Let's summarize. Prior to DriveByRPG, there were two channels to get a book in pdf format: pay or grab via P2P, newgroups, etc...

legal: go to RPGnow or some other outlet, pay, download. you can copy/paste (unless it was locked out), and make copies using drag and drop all you want. No registration, and if you computer crashes, you pull a copy off of your backup CD and keep going.

P2P: somebody has to purchase a pdf product and put it out on the net. if it was a print-only product, some sucker has to scan it and put it out on the net. Once downloaded, you have the same copy/paste and copy rights as if you bought it.

Now, if a pdf is sourced from DriveByRPG with DRM, here is what happens:

legal: go to DriveByRPG, pay. register with adobe or passport. download. you have limited copy/paste, cannot view on other machines unless you register it as well, which adds a minor hassle, and at least in one case, more expensive to take to a copy shop and have printed. if you delete it, or your computer crashes, you have to fork out for it again, unless you take an extra step above and beyond your normal backup procedure*

illegal: somebody pays for it, breaks the DRM (trivial) and puts it up. Those who pickup the cracked copy now get all the functionallity of a non-DRM protected pdf. in the case of previously print-only book, only the DRM needs to be cracked.

So, here is what I conclude:

1) The P2P networks will actually have more pdfs to share, as the most significant barrier to getting a copy of previously print-only product, scanning, has been removed.
2) #1 will actually create a windfall for previously print-only companies like AEG and FFG, as they will profit from the sales via DriveByRPG, which they would not have had otherwise. In addition, I believe some people will look at the scans of previously print-only products and then go buy a hardcopy if they really like it, if they can find one. Again, more money for previously print-only companies. Unless they had to pay a hefty fee to DriveByRPG to offset the cost of the DRM license (very expensive, see the adobe website), companies like AEG and FFG will actually make some money.
3) Products which were available in pdf format already, will probably see a tiny (maybe they won't see it at all) drop in sales, as some folks just don't like DRM, and object to the registration of each and every machine. You can disagree with people about whether DRM is a hassle, but the point here is that some people, like me, won't touch this stuff with a 10' pole.
4) Those who continue to buy pdf products which are DRM protected will have to deal with the restrictions. Some won't mind, some will hate it.

So, good move (potentially) for FFG and AEG. I really wonder what Malhavoc will be getting out of this, as illegal copies of their new DRM-protected pdfs will be just as available as their old ones, and I'm guessing sales may actually drop, though slightly. Well, I guess they get the grief of annoying customers and snarky comments on messageboards, and the satisfaction of making it harder to use their product. :\

I don't know who sold all these guys on the idea that DRM is secure, but they need to collectively kick his/her butt.

Oh, and Monte says something like, (paraphrasing) "if you actually talk to someone who uses DRM, you'll find that it is easy". Ok, that's me. It is not what it is all cracked up to be. Professionally, I've dealt with DRM on three separate projects. In all three cases, the clients all dropped DRM because it was way more hassle than what it is worth, and it did not do what it was supposed to do.

People say that we are resistant to change, and that is why we don't like DRM. Well, let me tell you, resistance to change is a strong motivator. When I saw people who were not technically savvy *at all* finding ways to break the DRM protection so they didn't have to change the way they worked, I knew right then and there that DRM is a poor attempt at digital rights management.


*you do backup you system, right?

 

[Tsyr]

In this regard, then, the theft of intellectual property is a lesser wrong than theft of tangible property. My theft of it does not deny anyone the possession of the property.

It's still *wrong*, regardless.

Ergo, we need to develop new conceptual structures to deal with ownership of digital information. Perhaps something like a tax on digital media to reimburse publishers who see decreased earnings due to piracy would work. I'm not sure.

God no. Move to Canada if you want this, I hear they are already trying it. For my self, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for all the software pirates out there. This is (fundamentaly) the same reason I oppose DRM. I don't do it, leave me out of it.

 

[Tsyr]

Another thing, Joshua Randall, is that while you are slinging your vitriol about at all of us whiners, remember that a lot of are basicly being given the finger by this new technology, and left with one of two options:

1) Not use it at all, since, regardless of if a person would be willing to buy it or not, it now WILL NOT WORK for a lot of people now, either at all (People running OS9 or Linux, for example, or a PDA-type device that doesnt use Acrobat 6), or only after a lot of needless hassle (Laptops that arent connected to the internet, for example).

Mind you, for a lot of us, the biggest attraction of PDFs is portability to PDAs and laptops and the like.

-or-

2) Break the law and remove the DRM encryption. And as many others have pointed out, this is NOT HARD. If you understand exactly what DRM is and how it protects the PDF, you dont even really need to go find some shady hack... There are legit (As in, there is a good chance you have the stuff on your computer already, if you do PDF publishing or the like) ways to do this already. (No, don't PM me asking me how, I'm not going to tell you.)

So this is the choice we are given. Be a criminal or be screwed.

I'm choosing be screwed, since I'd rather not be a criminal. But don't expect me to be silent and happy about it.

But at the same time, the people who pirate this stuff in the first place are already criminals, and they aren't going to give two flips about the legality of it.

 

[Mercule]

I've rebuilt every PC in my house at least once so far this year...I don't like thinking that I won't be able to get my PDFs to follow me around, when I do so.

I backup and rebuild my machine every 6-12 months. It used to be 3-6 months, but I'm getting lazy. Some people think that's overkill, but it's a habit I picked up when using Windows 3.1 and it gives me comfort.

Anything that makes backing up my data a PITA, isn't worth the time it takes to download, let alone any cash.

 

[DaveMage]

C'mon now Pat...the sky is falling...didn't ya get the memo?

No, he didn't have permission to access it on his computer...

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)