Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[Funksaw]

I'd suggest mailing the vendors - White Wolf certainly isn't responsive to actual letters.

 

[Tsyr]

Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs. We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly. These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks. If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.

And most people aren't saying that Monte is going to throw a hissy fit and shut down all his PDFs or anything.

DTRPG is an unproven entity, however.

 

[tm80401]

I'd suggest mailing the vendors - White Wolf certainly isn't responsive to actual letters.

When I said write a letter, I meant to the publishers.

All of them. You can use the same letter if you write it properly.

And to DTRPG. This would be a different letter, obviously.

 

[PetriWessman]

Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs. We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly. These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks. If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.

Oh, I agree with you. But that's not the point.

I can and do trust people. I usually do not trust companies. Companies are amoral creatures that mimic human behaviour when they are young and small, but become less and less human and more likely to stab you in the back the larger they grow. At some point they must be put out of their misery, or split into smaller creatures

Companies change ownership, business plans and plain go out of business. Happens nearly every day. While I may believe that everyone in this equation is a "good guy" right now, I have zero guarantees about 5 years from now. Who owns DTRPG (or Adobe) then? What are their practices? Are they still people I could trust? How do I know? I need to know, since they have total control over how I can use my library of books.

If I buy a printed book, I stop worrying about stuff like that the moment I pay for the book. After that it's mine, and the bookstore can change ownership, go out of business or get Darth Vader as the new store manager without affecting me and my book in any way.

If I buy a DRM "book", I'm shackled to the provider company for as long as I want to use the book. I have *no* guarantees that the people running the show 10 years from now will want to allow me to access my books anymore. They have full capability to changing the terms at any point, and there's nothing I can do about it.

After I pay for the book, the company should have absolutely no say over what I do with it. Otherwise we get lots of pretty scary scenarios, when we look at the long term.

Again, I'm not saying the people in charge right now are bad guys. But what about the future? I should not need to be worried about that when I buy a book, and I refuse to be. So I'll never buy from DTRPG.

If they switch to a non-intrusive scheme that keeps their control where it belongs (i.e. out of my life), watermarking or some other valid IP protection scheme, I'll gladly become their customer. They have a nice catalog. But for reasons outlined above and in previous posts, they will never get my business as long as the current DRM is in place.

 

[Staffan]

I hate to interrupt the philosophical debate, but here's an FYI I am trying to distribute to all the appropriate threads.

Contrary to what Steve Wieck and the DTRPG "response to common misconceptions" link has stated, there is a 6 machine registration limit through adobe, albeit there is some provision to reset machines through customer service. The DTRPG "common misconceptions page" has been updated with the following passage:

Note that you can only have 6 computers activated at any one time; however, the following is from Adobe Support: "If you have reformatted your hard drive or you have a new computer, you can call Customer Service at 800-272-3623 to get your activation reset. Press 1 for sales." We have used this number to reset activations with no difficulty.

Oh right. So now I might have to make frelling international phone calls to read my books at some point in the future? Yet another reason not to touch this (other than for free stuff which is, after all, free) with a 10' pole.

 

[Mythmere]

As an old fogey, I was just getting to the point where I might have paid money for a pdf (which I consider to be just shy of a rip-off in the first place, compared to print). But I'd have to update my adobe. I won't do that until it doesn't work anymore. So when I finally buy a pdf, it will be from RPGnow, not from a company that requires me to mess around with my computer's existing software, even if the software is free.

Also, the new company's website didn't adjust to the size of my screen. That spooks me, when a tech company's stuff doesn't work properly.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs. We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly. These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks. If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.

And yet many people feel they have been hurt nonetheless. A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed that these were good guys who would never do anything to hurt PDF customers and cared about the hobby more than anything else. Now with them embracing DRM I am no longer quite so sure. This is especially true for Malhavoc which built a reputation of caring for its customers and producing high quality PDFs. I have not given up all hope yet but the longer they continue to use DRM the less I feel that they care about the customer since I see DRM as being anti-consumer (No need to reiterate the measons already expressed).

And has been pointed out who knows who will be in charge of things in a couple of years anyway. When WotC bought D&D they saved it and improved it and like many others thought wow what a great and freindly company. Then 2 years later Ha$bro buys it and everyone I felt that was responsible for rescuing D&D moved on to other ventures and I no longer feel that D&D is run for and by gamers like I did before. Whose to say Mike Mearls or Monte Cook will even be around it 2 years and that they won't sell Malhavoc for a large sum of money and set up yet another great venture. If I buy a DRM PDF who is to say that these same freindly people will be around to guarntee that the DRM prooducts they sold won't be cut off by the new owners.

 

[RCanning]

Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs. We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly. These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks. If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.

I agree with you, I don't think the RPG industry is one where this is going to be something we have to worry about right now. But I don't know what is going to happen in the future, if I did, I would be a richer.

I did a lot of reading on Planned Obsolescence last night before going to bed. I had always only been for mechanical things, not for things like books. However, now, through the use of eBooks it is starting to happen.

Technology workers are already talking about develloping a book of hundreds of LCD screens, thin as paper, so that you can set it to work like a book, but load up the book you want. Think about your entire RPG library in one small book, where you can write on the pages, and then undo the writing later (and then bring it up again), and have thousands of books with you all the time, able to thumb through them like print. This is what they are working on.

The first time I heard this I though "Wow, that is going to be great." But now I know that they will use DRM for all of this. By the time it is there, internet connections and wireless will be the norm, so when they say "you have to be online for the book to load" people will go "That is annoying" but they will live with it. After all, it won't really effect them.

DRM = Digital Rights Management. They are boldly stating that they are going to control your Digital Rights, they are not letting you manage what you have bought, it will be completely their decision as to how it can be used, and when, and by whom, and for how long. That is what management is all about.

Large publishers (I am not talking RPG here - but more academic textbooks and encyclopedia publishers) must be frothing at the mouth about the concept of being able to expire their books when a new version comes out. Companies like Microsoft are already designing an expiration date into their OSes, where you have to pay to upgrade, or stop using all of your products. They are also dealing with hardware vendors so that you can only used approved and live software, so that you are forced to upgrade again.

With all of this it will be so simple to go to your bookshelf one day and find that some of your books are blank, and you are forced to purchase a new version.

This is something I am writing up for submission to a few people, not just about RPG (in fact I probably wont mention RPGs in the piece at all), but it will be something I am going to worry about.

Anyway, I have been awake about 10 minutes, and need a shower.

Richard Canning

 

[Obryn]

That's actually not strictly true. It depends entierly on what type of virtual printer you are using and how you have it configured. Hypotheticly, it can be done so well that the only loss is the loss of bookmarks.

It's more than hypothetical, I guarantee you, so long as it's done properly. Having done it myself, I can tell you the only ill effect is bloating the file size. Which a full version of Acrobat 6 can recompress, btw. It worked on all 3 freebies. And all it requires is 2 freeware utilities and the editing of 3 characters of a plain-text file in Notepad.

Because of this crack, ironically enough, I can purchase PDFs from DTRPG in pretty clear conscience. It also (IANAL) should fall under fair use, even with the DMCA, so long as it's done only for my personal non-commercial use. Namely, allowing me to read the darn things on Acrobat 5.0 at work. I'm not releasing them to anyone else; this would violate fair use and potentially deny companies I respect the income they deserve.

-O

 

[Dark Psion]

Well, I did a test today.

Last night I burned the free Gamma World and Monte's Dragon pdf. from Drive thru RPG as well as several Ronin Arts pdfs from RPGNow! and I took the CD to work today.

We have two computers, One new, WindowsXP, Acrobat 6, but is not conected to the internet.

RPGNow!: Loaded fine and full access
DtRPG: No access, nothing.

The other computer is older, Windows98, Acrobat 5 (6 will not set up) with internet access.

RPGNow!: Loaded fine and full access
DtRPG: No access, nothing.

So with DtRPG, I don't know if I will be able to access what I purchase on whatever computer I wish to use. I recently got a new computer, if my old pdfs were DRM, would I be able to access them?

I also called a Kinkos in OKC and asked about printing and binding a pdf file with DRM. They said if they can open it, they will print it, but they can't access it, they will do no more, they will not crack it for you.

I got the feeling that he had been asked that question a few too many times .


So that settles it for me.

If Hyperconsiousness is only available as a DRM pdf. file, I will pass. What if it is the best pdf ever? Well, I might just look into "other" ways of getting it. If you asked me that last week, I would never have even considered doing that because it would be too much of a hassle, but now the hassle line has shifted to the other side of the pdf.