Update to The Token System.

[Rune]

Not to draw attention from the winner of the 7-day RPG contest, darkcyril's Daughters of Lear (Check it out, if you haven't already!), but playtesting has revealed a couple of necessary updates to the game I entered--and, since the thread I entered it into is closed, I've got to start a new thread for it.

The changes are:

• Added the ability to use multiple attributes in a single action--at double token cost! This is necessary to heighten the tension in high-token games (such as super-heroic games). Also, it's an added layer of resource-management.
  
  
• Introduced Temporary Attributes, which can increase a character's action options, without increasing the token pool. These also can represent resources that may not be permanent, such as equipment or magical buffs.

So, here's the updated PDF:

 

[sehmerus]

play test of the Token system with some friends

We tested the Token system (before finding this update) and we had some questions about some things.

1- How do you treat Players assisting other players with this system? example, players where in a car chase, turned into a game of chicken. the car was driving toward a monster truck filled with redneck people in the back shooting at the players. the Driver used his Driving attribute to bid into a great driving maneuver where he specifically could turn the car to give the passenger a better shot with his gun to target the driver of the monster truck. and before that the Priest used his Blessing trait to try and give the Passenger a Great chance to hit (we were playing a modern fantasy setting where the Wheelman was a goblin, the Passenger was a gun toting elven Bounty hunter, and the Priest in the back seat was much like a D&D cleric but in modern time. (the guy who was to play the magician did not make it to the game)

2- We felt that as a storytelling element the system SHINES but once entering combat thing seemed to work weird. example, according to the rules the Magnitude of the action is defined by the Last amount that was bid by both people. So if Player 1 shoots his gun at the Troll, and he decided to go big By offering 4 tokens, and the Troll only responds with 1 token then the Magnitude ends up only being 1 (which is defined as "1 = The stakes are slightly higher, but still low-risk. Results might last for several minutes or even days but will not directly cause real harm to anyone." so i am to think that all anyone has to do from get out of being severely wounded is to only bid ONE token. "The assassin sneaks up on you with his gun to your head and pulls the trigger" he puts 5 tokens in the bid Player b responds with "i put one token in the bid and let him caught up 4 tokens, AND on top of that i do not suffer anything major.

unless i am understanding the system wrong, to me i would think that maybe the more appropriate thing to do is have the Magnitude be based on the Difference of the winning bid rather than just by how many were needed to win. so in the scenario above the magnitude would have been 4 (5-1=4) so the gun would have killed the person instead of not doing enough. this way it gives reason for people to spend more of their tokens even when defending against an action that they CANNOT win. so if the guy who only has a Dodge of 3 gets shot at a guy with guns 4, spending all 3 of his tokens to dodge is more necessary now because it makes a fatal wound a not so fatal wound (but he still gets hit)

I really had fun playing even with some of the combat situations that came up, if we finish the scenario i came up with i might share it with you sometime.

 

[Rune]

We tested the Token system (before finding this update) and we had some questions about some things.

1- How do you treat Players assisting other players with this system? example, players where in a car chase, turned into a game of chicken. the car was driving toward a monster truck filled with redneck people in the back shooting at the players. the Driver used his Driving attribute to bid into a great driving maneuver where he specifically could turn the car to give the passenger a better shot with his gun to target the driver of the monster truck. and before that the Priest used his Blessing trait to try and give the Passenger a Great chance to hit (we were playing a modern fantasy setting where the Wheelman was a goblin, the Passenger was a gun toting elven Bounty hunter, and the Priest in the back seat was much like a D&D cleric but in modern time. (the guy who was to play the magician did not make it to the game)

First of all, thank you for your interest! I think some of this may have been touched on in the update, but here is a response off the top of my head:

Characters assist each other by performing actions that either create aid within the context of the narrative of the game or that create temporary attributes (a concept introduced in the update) for the assisted character to use. Because there are no turns in the game, it isn't uncommon for someone to say they're going to try something, only to be interrupted by someone else saying they want to do something to set the first character up in some way. When this happens, you should completely resolve the assisting character's action first. It's all actually very intuitive.

2- We felt that as a storytelling element the system SHINES but once entering combat thing seemed to work weird. example, according to the rules the Magnitude of the action is defined by the Last amount that was bid by both people. So if Player 1 shoots his gun at the Troll, and he decided to go big By offering 4 tokens, and the Troll only responds with 1 token then the Magnitude ends up only being 1 (which is defined as "1 = The stakes are slightly higher, but still low-risk. Results might last for severalminutes or even days but will not directly cause real harm to anyone." so i am to think that all anyone has to do from get out of being severely wounded is to only bid ONE token. "The assassin sneaks up on you with his gun to your head and pulls the trigger" he puts 5 tokens in the bid Player b responds with "i put one token in the bid and let him caught up 4 tokens, AND on top of that i do not suffer anything major.

One way to think of the bidding back-and-forth during combat is to describe it as a blow-by-blow exchange between two combatants. This is a bit easier to do if both participants start with low bids and work upward (and there is a mechanical reason to want to do that, anyway).

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you place a bid, you are representing both an outcome and a level of risk you are willing to accept to see it happen (this will be easier to envision if bids actually state both elements) . The opponent likewise represents an outcome and an acceptable level of risk. But the actual action isn't resolved--and doesn't happen--until the bidding stops. By necessity, the winner won't achieve everything s/he was representing because the loser wouldn't--or couldn't--accept that level of risk.

unless i am understanding the system wrong, to me i would think that maybe the more appropriate thing to do is have the Magnitude be based on the Difference of the winning bid rather than just by how many were needed to win. so in the scenario above the magnitude would have been 4 (5-1=4) so the gun would have killed the person instead of not doing enough. this way it gives reason for people to spend more of their tokens even when defending against an action that they CANNOT win. so if the guy who only has a Dodge of 3 gets shot at a guy with guns 4, spending all 3 of his tokens to dodge is more necessary now because it makes a fatal wound a not so fatal wound (but he still gets hit)

While you are, of course, welcome to experiment with the rules in any way your group wants, I recommend that you consider the ramifications of making this change in a game that has no random elements in action resolution. If you allow the possibility of forcing outcomes on the losing side, whoever has the highest attributes and the most tokens can be a bully and basically dictate the rest of the game.

Don't worry too much about countering larger bids with small ones; that's just part of the strategy of the game (and it's also a great way to make sure your villains get a chance to reoccur). If you feel the players are doing this with impunity, make sure to vary the resulting complications and keep them relevant during the course of the session!

I really had fun playing even with some of the combat situations that came up, if we finish the scenario i came up with i might share it with you sometime.

Glad you enjoyed it and I hope I've been able to help you out! I would indeed like to see that scenario if you do want to share it. In the meantime, here's an account of a game that I ran with the Token System, converting the old AD&D module, I6 Ravenloft, on the fly. It starts on the second page of this thread.

Edit == One more thing: when your opponent bids way under you, your own final bid drops to one more than your opponent's (so you don't end up spending lots of tokens for little effect). This fix/clarification might have been part of the revision, rather than the original version; I don't remember.

 

[sehmerus]

Please give me some examples

I really wish You had a audio or video blog of you playing so what you are saying clicks. but I'm just not getting it...

here is an example of how i ran a situation please let me know how YOU would have done it different.

the scenario-- the heroes are in a car (a Goblin, Wheelman. who is driving, an Elven Bounty Hunter in the passenger seat, and a Human Priest in the back seat.) the heroes are trying to flee a culdisack (dead end) of a drug lord who just hired them to find a missing Corpse. While the Goblin revs up his 69 Camaro and squeals out as he is trying to get to the Morgue where the little girls corpse was stolen. But coming down the road in an attempt to play chicken is a rival Gang in a monster truck. in the bed of the truck are 3 Elven Gang members with hunting Rifles, and a Dwarf is driving with a Goblin in the passenger seat with a Shotgun. So the player has a Driving trait of 4, and the Dwarf Driver also has a trait of 4 so i start the bid with ONE token and say "ok this guy is trying to prevent you from being able to get out. you need to beat his bid or risk damaging your car in attempting to escape with the group. so the Goblin player tosses in 2 tokens. and says he will swerve around the truck in a manner to get past it but he will lose control. So then I followed up by adding 2 more tokens and i tell him that it is now his 4 to your 3. you can either accept the bid as is in which case you will not be able to flee, and because the magnitude is 3, then a significant thing will happen to your car or you. or if you decide to tie the bid then you may get past them but the magnitude will be 4 (game changing) and there for most likely both vehicles will be totaled. he chose to keep it as it was without totaling his car and instead of fleeing he swerved and ran into a garbage can which took out his spoiler and scratched up his custom rims.

Now people start shooting at each other and this is where it gets complicated. the car ended up right next to (almost touching) the monster truck, and the people in the truck bed begin opening fire on the heroes in the camaro. the first shooter uses pistols at the passenger, the shooter spends all 3 of his tokens because he really wants to hurt this guy to impress the gangs boss. the bounty hunter passenger happens to have misdirection attribute of 3 and matches the 3 so he doe not get hit. but because the magnitude of the tie is now 3 the bulled does miss the bounty hunter but it shatters the poor goblins camaro window and throws glass shard all into the lap of the bounty hunter. at this point the second gunman in the truck bed aims his rifle at the priest through the back window. and uses all 3 tokens to also impress his boss. at this point the priest uses 4 of his prayer tokens to wish that god would grant him protection. and since he beat the gunman's 3 rifle tokens then he is successful at causing an event that would prevent the shooter to miss, it being a rank 3 magnitude justifies the gun to misfire and not only shoot somewhere up in the air but also causes the shooter to drop his rifle that is now in pieces in the trunk bed floor. at this point the goblin needs to get his poor camaro out of harms way but knows that the other driver is as good as him, so instead of driving around him and continuing a starting a car chase, he throws the camaro in revers, and swerves it to a stop with the bounty hunter in a perfect T line up to shoot the driver of the truck, i tell him that since doing so isn't what i would consider super tricky maneuver i would make that an obstacle that would require him to use 3 tokens. so he does. the reward i gave for him doing this is now when the bounty hunter is able to take his shot ill give him a +1 and allow him to spend one extra token than his normal limit if he wanted to, so the bounty hunter goes all out puts out 4 tokens. the other driver only has a dodge of 3 and then i gave him a +1 for having an armored windshield. so they ties 4 v4, and i look to the bounty hunter and he decide not to go the extra token (he was getting low) so the magnitude is 4 causing a change to the game, so the shot goes off and hits the dwarf driver in the head killing him instantly however the shot causes the gun to jam and do so Badly that i needs to be taken apart and fixed (something not able to do this adventure)

so after than the was a couple more shots before the goblin swerved out of the dead end and they lost the thugs in the truck. it was a fun combat.

NO later on, there was a combat where the guy needed to knock out or get past a guard of the crime scene. and one of them thought well I have fighting 4 so i can probably just knock him out with a punch, However... according to the rules the way i understand them this guard person only had a fighting of 1, (he was a rent a cop) but since he could only EVER bid 1 token in a fighting match, then only 2 tokens would be used to over come him, BUT the magnitude its still only ONE. which according to the magnitude means a very short term effect. so this is where i get confused. it seems like having a attribute that is really high doesn't do any good when you appose it with someone who's attributes are low because you can't get the effect that you as a player are trying to get. acceding to the magnitude list it would need to be a 3 or 4 before you can do bodily harm or kill someone so if i had a villain who has 5 pistols and i tell the player I'm gonna shoot you in the head and blow your head off, all that player has to do to ruin my villains day is bid 1 token and then pass, so my villain now has 5 token vs his ONE. and so the magnitude is always gonna be ONE and that will mean that even tho my villains gun is in his face, with ONE magnitude i end up shooting him in the toe. and if that is how the system can work, that i think is a problem. unless I'm not getting it which i hope so because as i mentioned the above first combat we had was really fun and interactive. but when ONE player realized all they have to do to ruin the System is ONLY BID ONE token id you know you can't win. and you don't get the effect you wanted.

 

[Rune]

[MENTION=79866]sehmerus[/MENTION]:

That first scenario actually looks like it was a lot of fun!

That said, I'm going to tell you three things that will help you immensely while running the game:

1: You seem to be having the same problem my brother was having at first when he ran games. He kept wanting to tell the player what bid would result in a success--effectively setting a target number. Don't do that. Instead, trust the players to set the terms of their intended actions based on the bids they are placing. If you feel their actions don't match the bids, tell them and let them adjust accordingly. THEN you place your own bid and increase the stakes. This game is designed to let the players define it's scope (and don't worry, the economy of token-exchange ensures that the system is robust enough to handle that). As a GM, embrace your role as a passenger.

2: If you have enough tokens to spend (double your final bid), don't ever forget that you can combine attributes! In the case of your rent-a-cop, if he had a second attribute, say, Evasion at Rank 2, he could have run to cover while putting up some covering fire. For a cost of six tokens, the bid is all of a sudden three instead of one. This doubling of tokens allows for any number of additional attributes to be used. Also, don't forget that allies, circumstances, or the environment can provide temporary attributes that can be combined the same way!

3: If you have one or more players who are consistently bidding one (for example, in a concentrated effort to wear down your tokens while building their own reserves) don't worry about it! The system is working as intended. Just make sure that those very many minor complications that the characters are accruing are suitably annoying and varied. They need not be directly applied to the character, either. Environmental complications are a great way to make a scenario feel cinematic. And try this: don't lay them all out as soon as you win a bid. Instead, hold some of those complications in reserve to spring on the characters in a dramatically appropriate moment.

 

[sehmerus]

token clarification

Ok so how do you go about making a Minor complication work to where it makes sense? lets use the example of 2 cowboys shooting at each other in the streets of a western town, one is a professional gunslinger and his pistols is a 4, the other guy is the player and he is more of a crime solver of the group so his character has a pistol score of just 2, and the player who is playing this lawman is either trying to metagame the system, or doestn see the need to try and bid more than one token. so every exchange is 1 from lawman and 2 from the gunslinger (because even tho the gunslinger can open up a bid of 4 tokens if the lawman only resists with 1 (or none) then the outcome is always going to be MINOR) so if we look up the definition of minor magnitude..

0 = In this case, the stakes are very low. The result of this action is very shortterm,
lasting for only a moment or so, or otherwise severely limited.
1 = The stakes are slightly higher, but still low-risk. Results might last for several
minutes or even days but will not directly cause real harm to anyone.

the BEST the Gunslinger can do to the Lawman is "not directly causing real harm to anyone" or "short term lasting only a moment or so" so by this definition it can't be that the lawman gets shot, because a gunshot would be more of a magnitude of 2 for a flesh wound, 3 for a critical wound, and 4 for a lethal wound.

So you mentioned in an above comment that having the magnitude be determined by the difference of the bid instead of equal to the lowest would equate in characters bullying people with higher stats, but from the perspective i am seeing in the current set up the defender will (or CAN) be bullying by making a combat fight go on and on, there doesn't seem to be any insentive for someone who has a low score to bid up on a task. i see NO reason other than a ONE TIME last ditch effort by combining traits (which would cost ton of tokens) for a defender with a low combat score to ever bid more than 0.

So walk me through a scenario with the above gunfight how it would play out in your game by using your words as you would say them to the player who was planning on only bidding 0. I read through your examples with the raven loft adventure (sounded really fun btw) but i didn't notice any play examples, other than just narrative of what happened. so show me in this example so hopefully i can get it. cuz these guys want me to continue this scenario after the holidays and i really want to understand this system more.

 

[Rune]

Ok so how do you go about making a Minor complication work to where it makes sense? lets use the example of 2 cowboys shooting at each other in the streets of a western town, one is a professional gunslinger and his pistols is a 4, the other guy is the player and he is more of a crime solver of the group so his character has a pistol score of just 2, and the player who is playing this lawman is either trying to metagame the system, or doestn see the need to try and bid more than one token. so every exchange is 1 from lawman and 2 from the gunslinger (because even tho the gunslinger can open up a bid of 4 tokens if the lawman only resists with 1 (or none) then the outcome is always going to be MINOR) so if we look up the definition of minor magnitude..

0 = In this case, the stakes are very low. The result of this action is very shortterm, lasting for only a moment or so, or otherwise severely limited. 1 = The stakes are slightly higher, but still low-risk. Results might last for several minutes or even days but will not directly cause real harm to anyone.

the BEST the Gunslinger can do to the Lawman is "not directly causing real harm to anyone" or "short term lasting only a moment or so" so by this definition it can't be that the lawman gets shot, because a gunshot would be more of a magnitude of 2 for a flesh wound, 3 for a critical wound, and 4 for a lethal wound.

So you mentioned in an above comment that having the magnitude be determined by the difference of the bid instead of equal to the lowest would equate in characters bullying people with higher stats, but from the perspective i am seeing in the current set up the defender will (or CAN) be bullying by making a combat fight go on and on, there doesn't seem to be any insentive for someone who has a low score to bid up on a task. i see NO reason other than a ONE TIME last ditch effort by combining traits (which would cost ton of tokens) for a defender with a low combat score to ever bid more than 0.

One of the nice side effects of having the players instigate almost every action is that they will be leading with a bid, which means it is your decision what to do next. Any bid from you at all means a magnitude of at least one. If you don't want to see a bunch of zero magnitude complications accrued, all you have to do is bid against the players.

That said, the fights in this game (like all the action) are supposed to be cinematic. Participants are expected to maneuver for position, try to create advantages for themselves, and generally try to prevent themselves from being badly hurt or killed. That isn't "dragging the fight out" ; it is the fight!

Generally, a player has to choose to let their character die in this system. Your job is to put them in a position where they'll actually consider it.

Remember, also, that you don't have to require a token exchange, at all, if you think what the character is attempting should be automatically successful.

So walk me through a scenario with the above gunfight how it would play out in your game by using your words as you would say them to the player who was planning on only bidding 0. I read through your examples with the raven loft adventure (sounded really fun btw) but i didn't notice any play examples, other than just narrative of what happened. so show me in this example so hopefully i can get it. cuz these guys want me to continue this scenario after the holidays and i really want to understand this system more.

Okay, here goes:

lets use the example of 2 cowboys shooting at each other in the streets of a western town, one is a professional gunslinger and his pistols is a 4, the other guy is the player and he is more of a crime solver of the group so his character has a pistol score of just 2, and the player who is playing this lawman is either trying to metagame the system, or doestn see the need to try and bid more than one token.

First, I set the scene. Presumably the characters have already positioned themselves into this conflict somehow, so I'll start by telling the player that the gunslinger has caught sight of his character and is reaching for his gun. What I will NOT do yet is place a bid. I want the player to take the initiative.

Then I ask what the character is trying to do. This will require a bid of at least one. If the player thinks that doing nothing at all (with a bid of zero) is a good idea, I'll inform him that doing absolutely nothing to avoid getting shot won't require a token exchange; the character will simply be shot dead. Once again, the decision rests with the player.

Assuming the player has chosen to do something, I will then expect him to describe his intended action and bid appropriately. If I feel it's warranted, I'll ask for clarification.

Perhaps he says he is going to draw and fire upon the gunslinger with a bid of one. "What," I will ask, "are you trying to accomplish with the magnitude that you are representing?" Maybe he says that he is just trying to make the gunslinger flinch and hesitate long enough for the lawman to slip away. Sounds like a magnitude of one to me.

The gunslinger doesn't want the lawman to get away, so he'll rely on his years of experience to stare the other man down, even while being shot at, and make sure there's no opening for escape. Just to teach him a lesson, he'll also attempt to shoot the lawman's gun out of his hand. That's a bid of two.

If the player stops there, I figure the gunslinger didn't actually manage to shoot the other's gun (that would be a magnitude two result), but did prevent the escape.

Having nowhere else to go, the lawman chooses to hunker down behind a boulder and shoot at the gunslinger if he tries to flank him. This will only require a bid if his opponent actually does try to do so. I figure he will, so I then ask for clarification on what the shot is meant to accomplish. Turns out, the lawman wants to hold the gunslinger at bay and buy some time for reinforcements to come. Bid is one.

This time, I figure the gunslinger will retreat, but also fire a shot off just to let the other know he ain't yella. This is done with a bid of one, resulting in a tie, which generates another complication. I'm going to save that for later. Maybe the lawman's gun will jam at just the wrong moment.

 

[Rune]

[MENTION=79866]sehmerus[/MENTION] (and anyone else who is interested), it occurs to me that the best way to get across some of these concepts might well be to run a play-by-post game. So that's what I'm going to do.

If anyone would like to join in, the recruitment thread can be found here. Drop in; it'll be fun.

 

[sehmerus]

ok its coming to me, i think

Ok I see what you did there, BUT.. isn't saying that "The gunslinger is going for his gun ,if you do not spend a token to react to this you will be shot" means that if you bid =0 then a Magnitude 3 or 4 result will happen? If I could have Bated bids with that kind of consequences I think the combat would have been better. but from the way I was reading the rules I thought I was only allowed to say "The gunslinger is going for his gun. What do you do?" and if they choose 0 tokens then something with VERY LOW stakes would happen. if this is the case, should maybe 0-costing magnitudes be considered wild for the storyteller / DM to Define rather than to have 0 Magnitude classified as a "low risk" results?

also how Do you handle "no turns" when EVRYONE wants to do something at the same time? example, two guys shoot at the same villain ?

Dave--

 

[Rune]

Ok I see what you did there, BUT.. isn't saying that "The gunslinger is going for his gun ,if you do not spend a token to react to this you will be shot" means that if you bid =0 then a Magnitude 3 or 4 result will happen?

Nope. Narrative trumps in this situation. If the character is just going stand there and take a bullet, the narrative will dictate the consequences.

If I could have Bated bids with that kind of consequences I think the combat would have been better. but from the way I was reading the rules I thought I was only allowed to say "The gunslinger is going for his gun. What do you do?" and if they choose 0 tokens then something with VERY LOW stakes would happen. if this is the case, should maybe 0-costing magnitudes be considered wild for the storyteller / DM to Define rather than to have 0 Magnitude classified as a "low risk" results?

Mechanically speaking, the zero magnitude exists in case the respondent doesn't buy into a bid. But in order for a player to initiate an action, a bid must be placed. This is one of the reasons you should be letting the players initiate almost every action.

also how Do you handle "no turns" when EVRYONE wants to do something at the same time? example, two guys shoot at the same villain ?

Dave--

Generally the players can work out the order they want to act in on their own. If they simply can't work it out, you can always just resolve them on a "first called, first resolved" basis.