Updated Monster Summoning Lists???

[FreeTheSlaves]

Consider that 'yoinked'.

 

[Olive]

I'll probably adding a few new monsters to that list shortly... after I surprise some of players.

All good. Have you compared this list to the one in dragon? The FF has summon monster spell levels for some monsters. Would you just use those, or have you been using some other system for creating your list?

Pax: FF does include it in the moster description. While it WOULD be nice for WotC to put up something on the site with expanded SM lists, I'm not sure that your not buying dragon is a good reason for them to do so. Just buy the dragon already!!!

 

[Pax]

Olive: I don't have the $$ to buy every issue of Dragon "just in case", and I don't hear about stuff like the expanded SM lists until well AFTER the fact.

And really, how hard would it be for WOTC to put a Web Enhancement feature for each monster book, detailing SM / SNA / etc additions based on the creatures in that book?

 

[drnuncheon]

And really, how hard would it be for WOTC to put a Web Enhancement feature for each monster book, detailing SM / SNA / etc additions based on the creatures in that book?

If you want numbers pulled out of a developer's ear, then not too long. Then again, you could probably do just as well on your own.

If you want accurate, playtested numbers, then it would be a lot more work.

I don't blame 'em for not putting them up, because the first slip-up and a jillion fans would be screaming about how the new summon lists are 'broken'.

J

 

[Azul]

Here's the list used in my campaign. Note: We don't use alignment and have replaced it with a concept we call taint. Normal creatures are untainted. Some of the more bizarre creatures (especially evil and weirder neutral extraplanar types) are tainted (the "neutral" of the taint scale). Anything that looks like it would fit right in a Call of Cthulhu game is foul (the opposite of untainted) - usually aberrations and really warped stuff. This scale is used in our campaign to determine summoning a certain creature will contaminate the summoner (a notion specific to our game world).

BTW, I developed my scale by looking over the typical CRs of most critters that get summoned up, producing a ball-park range from that and then combing the books for critters. Weak creatures with unusually strong powers got bumped up or were simply not added. Oh, and our setting has a strong middle-eastern flavour to it so genies, rocs and stuff like dragon turtles turn up.

1st level
CR 1/3+strong ability or CR 1/2
Corollax [MM2]
Dire Rat
Dog
Jermalaine (tainted) [MM2]
Moonrat [MM2]
Neogi, spawn (foul) [MM2]
Twig Blight (tainted) [MM2]

2nd level
CR1/2+strong ability or CR1
Bariaur [MotP]
Devil, Lemure (tainted)
Eagle
Felldrake, crested [MM2]
Formian, worker (tainted)
Ixitxachitl, average (foul) [MM2]
Shark, medium-size
Stirge (foul)
Wolf

3rd level
CR1+strong ability or CR2
Azer
Bladeling (tainted)
Choaker (foul)
Demon, Dretch (tainted)
Demon, Mane (tainted) [BoVD]
Elemental, small
Felldrake, spitting [MM2]
Hippogryph
Kython, Broodling (foul) [BoVD]
Paraelemental, small [MotP]
Salamander, flamebrother
Skum (foul)
Thri-Kreen (foul) [MM2]
Thoqqua
Triton

4th level
CR3 +/-1
Arrowhawk, juvenile
Demon, Rutterkin (tainted) [BoVD]
Devil, Imp (tainted)
Ethereal Filcher
Ethereal Marauder
Fihyr (foul) [MM2]
Hellhound (tainted)
Howler (tainted)
Ixitxachitl, vampiric (foul) [MM2]
Magmin
Pegasus
Phase Wasp [MM2]
Stone Spike [MM2]
Tojanida, small
Unicorn
Vargouille
Xorn, small

5th level
CR4 +/-1
Archerai (tainted)
Arrowhawk, adult
Devil, Spinagon (tainted) [MotP]
Displacer Beast (foul)
Elemental, medium-size
Energon, Xag-Ya [MotP]
Energon, Xeg-Yi [MotP]
Ephemera, Dusk Beast [MotP]
Felldrake, Horned [MM2]
Formian, warrior
Genie, Janni
Grell (foul) [MM2]
Griffon
Hydra, 5-headed
Kython, Juvenile (foul) [BoVD]
Mephit, any
Minotaur
Neogi, adult (foul) [MM2]
Paraelemental, medium-size [MotP]
Quasit (tainted)
Salamander, average
Shadow Mastiff
Tojanida, medium-size
Vaath (foul) [BoVD]
Yeth Hound (tainted)

6th level
CR6 +/-1
Belker
Chaos Beast (foul)
Cloaker (foul)
Demon, Bar-lgura (tainted) [BoVD]
Demon, Uridezu (tainted) [MotP]
Devil, Barbazu (tainted)
Devil, Erinyes (tainted)
Devil, Hellcat (tainted)
Elemental, large
Genie, Djinni
Gibbering Mouther (foul)
Hydra, 6-headed
Kython, Adult (foul) [BoVD]
Kyton (tainted)
Manticore
Marrash (tainted) [MM2]
Paraelemental, large [MotP]
Phase Spider
Psurlon, average (foul) [MM2]
Rast
Slaad, Red (tainted)
Sphinx, Hieracosphinx
Wyste (foul) [MM2]
Xorn, medium-size

7th level
CR7 +/- 1
Aboleth (foul)
Arrowhawk, elder
Athatch (foul)
Chuul (foul)
Demon, Armanite (tainted) [MotP]
Demon, Babau (tainted) [BoVD]
Demon, Bebilith (tainted)
Devil, Hamatula (tainted)
Devil, Kocrachon (tainted) [BoVD]
Devil, Osyluth (tainted)
Dragonne
Elemental, huge
Frost Salamander [MM2]
Genie, Dao [MotP] – cannot grant limited wish
Hook Horror (foul) [MM2]
Hydra, 7-headed
Invisible Stalker
Kopru (foul) [MM2]
Kython, Impaler (foul) [BoVD]
Paraelemental, huge [MotP]
Ravid – alone
Slaad, Blue (tainted)
Sphinx, Criosphinx
Tojanida, large
Umber Hulk (foul)
Will-O’-Wisp (foul)
Wyvern
Yugoloth, Mezzoloth (tainted) [MotP]

8th level
CR9 +/- 1
Barghest (foul)
Darktentacles (foul) [MM2]
Demon, Shadow Demon (tainted) [BoVD]
Demon, Succubus
Devil, Cornugon
Dune Stalker (tainted) [MM2]
Elemental, greater
Formian, taskmaster (tainted)
Genie, Efreet [MotP] – cannot grant wish
Genie, Marid [MotP] – cannot grant limited wish
Hydra, 8-headed
Inevitable, Zelekhut [MotP]
Kython, Slaymaster (foul) [BoVD]
Lillend
Mind Flayer (foul)
Nethersight Mastiff [MM2]
Paraelemental, greater [MotP]
Psurlon, elder (foul) [MM2]
Rogue Eidolon (foul) [MM2]
Salamander, noble
Slaad, Green (tainted)
Sphinx, Androsphinx
Sphinx, Gynosphinx
Vilewight (foul) [BoVD]

9th level
CR11 +/- 2
Avolakia (foul) [MM2]
Barghest, greater (foul)
Beholder (foul)
Demon, Vrock (tainted)
Demon, Chasme (tainted) [BoVD]
Devil, Narzugon (tainted) [MotP]
Devil, Malebranche (tainted)
Dragon Turtle
Elemental, elder
Ethereal Slayer [MM2]
Hydra, 9-headed
Kython, Slaughterking (foul) [BoVD]
Leechwalker (foul) [MM2]
Mooncalf (foul) [MM2]
Night Hag (tainted)
Paraelemental, elder [MotP]
Rakshasa (tainted)
Roc
Slaad, Grey (tainted)
Xill (foul)
Yrthak (foul)
Yugoloth, Nycaloth (tainted) [MotP]
Yugoloth, Yagnoloth (tainted) [MM2]

 

[green slime]

All good. Have you compared this list to the one in dragon? The FF has summon monster spell levels for some monsters. Would you just use those, or have you been using some other system for creating your list?

I did compare my list to the Dragon version. I found that the dragon version had been mostly looking at CR, and completely disregarded the special abilities of certain monsters.

For instance, the Formorian worker can in cooperation cast Cure Serious Wounds, (IIRC) thus isn't really suitable as a 1st level summoned monster.

Thirdly, I would look over the FF monsters and their abilities, as Azul specifies. That is, creatures with powerful special abilities tend to be bumped up to a level where those special abilities are apropriate. In general I find that the core rules is just about right, just a few strange happenings. I found the Dragon article to be more warped.

The main hash I have with the list is the Elementals... I really do feel they are a bum summon at the lower levels. And the fact they (WotC) haven't been given serious consideration to updating the Summon Monster lists in their monster splat books, (until FF, which I have yet to see...)

Edited for clarity...

 

[Caliban]

For instance, the Formorian worker can in cooperation cast Cure Serious Wounds, (IIRC) thus isn't really suitable as a 1st level summoned monster.

Except that it takes 8 workers do so. You would have to use multiple Summon Monster II spells to pull that off reliably.

 

[Spatula]

Yeah, well, not everyone buys Dragon religiously.

It' d be nice if they'd put it on the frikkin' website already, FFS.

It'd be even BETTER, if WOTC books with monsters would INDICATE which summoning spell(s), if any, could call which creatures in that book. A page or two, is all it'd take ... at most!

The Dragon article basically just tells you that summon monster X can summon monsters with a max CR of Y, with a general note that some monsters might be too powerful for their CR. The max CR for each spell level is the spell level minus one up and including summon monster 4, For summon monster 5 through 9, the max CR is the spell level multiplied by 2 and minus 5 (so, for summon monster 7, 7 * 2 - 5 = CR 9). Monsters with spellcasting are singled out as potentially needing to be bumped a spell level or two.

The Dragon issue is #302, BTW. The article also provides an expanded summoning list, but the list follows the above CR guidelines exactly, except for elementals (which get bumped up one spell level).

 

[green slime]

Except that it takes 8 workers do so. You would have to use multiple Summon Monster II spells to pull that off reliably.

Yes... or multiple Summon Monster III... 1d4+1 would burn up two slots, and with just slightly better than average rolls, give a 6th level sorcerer the ability to CSW for 4 rounds.

I really don't mind the effect, I just think that it comes too cheaply. Placing the Formorian worker in the list of second level monsters, feels right to me. Right where they are listed in the PHB.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the 1d3, 1d4+1 progression either. I'd have preferred 1d2+1, 1d3+2. I feel that if you are willing to blow a high level spell on multiple low level monsters, you should have some guarantee that you aren't going to get completely screwed... Nobody IMC uses the ability to summon multiple low level monsters, because they get laughed at when they roll that 1...

 

[dcollins]

dcollins, the only thing I can say in response to yoru post, is: well, duh!

Core rules doesn't include the MM2. However, if the MM2 is an acceptible source ... IOW, if monsters form it are showing up in the campaign ... then it stands to reason, some of them should be summonable via the Summon Monster (etc) spells.

I disagree. Does the MMII itself specify rules for expanded summoning lists based on its contents? If not, then any expansion of the summoning lists falls under the heading of House Rules, not even justified by the supplements themselves.

A presumption of PC power inflation with every monster supplement is a dangerous thing to game balance.