Updated Monster Summoning Lists???

[Pax]

I disagree. Does the MMII itself specify rules for expanded summoning lists based on its contents? If not, then any expansion of the summoning lists falls under the heading of House Rules, not even justified by the supplements themselves.

A presumption of PC power inflation with every monster supplement is a dangerous thing to game balance.

Sweet christ, you act like broadening player choices expands their power. More choices is not synonymous with more power.

Look, if the number of monsters available with a Summon Monster I spell increases by 900%, from four to fourty ... as long as they're all of an appropriate level of power, why does it matter? How does that expand a player's power?

If you can expect a given level of utility/result out of Summon Monster I (or II, III, etc ... all the way up to IX) ... what does it matter, really, how many ways you can dress that level of power-and-utility up?

Me, I'd simply like more CHOICES, so I don't have BBEG #327 summon the same sorts of creatures with Summon Monster that BBEG #53 was summoning. After a while, it gets to be "old hat", as it were.

Enhanced variety and multiplicity of choice is not invariably synonymous with increased power.

Further, I consider the LACK of specified expanded options for summoning, in MM2, to be a grievous flaw of that product.

"PC power inflation", my left testicle.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yes... or multiple Summon Monster III... 1d4+1 would burn up two slots, and with just slightly better than average rolls, give a 6th level sorcerer the ability to CSW for 4 rounds.

If the Sorcerer rolled slightly better than average on both of two different rolls, which is somewhat unlikely, meaning he would have to burn another spell slot in most cases.

Plus, having played a conjuration specialist, and pulled this trick off in actual game play, I can say it is clumsy, difficult, and useful only as a last resort. The formians have to surround the target, and it takes them a full round to heal the target, making it a non-combat option at best. Plus, you burn through a lot of spell slots, and have to do a lot of logistical coordination on the fly.

Finally, you have the problem of communication. You have to be able to communicate with the creature to get it to do anything other than fight your enemies. Formian workers are not listed as having any language skills, and if they did, they would likely speak formian or axiomatic, somewhat unusual languages for a wizard or sorcerer to know. I used Telepathic Bond to communicate with the formians when I did the trick, but that's not a spell most sorcerers are going to have racked up.

 

[drnuncheon]

Sweet christ, you act like broadening player choices expands their power. More choices is not synonymous with more power.

By that logic, a spell of whatever-element-I-choose-ball is not any more powerful than fireball. Despite that, I suspect that upon introducing such a spell, you would find that nobody selected fireball anymore.

More choices mean more versatility - and versatility is power, because you're increasing the chance that you're going to have the 'perfect monster' to summon for the current situation.

J

 

[Merlion]

Here are the alternate summoning rules I have written and will soon be playtesting

this list is Spell level: CR of summoned creature

1:1
2:2
3:3
4:4-5
5: 6-7
6:8-9
7:9-10
8:10-11
9:12+


and I have created thease new feats for casters who wish to focus on summoning:
Improved Summoning (General)
Your Summoned monsters are stronger than normal
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 1+
Benefit: Any creature you summon with a Summon Monster spell gains a +1 hit points per hit die and a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls.


Greater Summoning (General)
Your summoned monsters are even more powerful than normal
Prerequisite: Augmented Summoning, Spellcaster level 5th+
Benefit: Any creature you summon with a Summon Monster spell gains +2 Hit Points per Hit Die and a +2 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls.


Superior Summoning (General)
Your summoned monsters are extremely deadly
Prerequisite: Augmented Summoning, Greater Summoning, Spellcaster level 9th+
Benefit: Any creature you summon with a Summon Monster spell gains +3 Hit Points per Hit Die and a +3 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls. Additionally, they gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex, and the saving throw DC’s for all of their spells and special abilities increases by 2.

 

[Pax]

By that logic, a spell of whatever-element-I-choose-ball is not any more powerful than fireball. Despite that, I suspect that upon introducing such a spell, you would find that nobody selected fireball anymore.

More choices mean more versatility - and versatility is power, because you're increasing the chance that you're going to have the 'perfect monster' to summon for the current situation.

J

The point here is: if you have a spell which can summon various beasties, based on what is in that world already ... and you have TWO books of beasties in your world ...

... why wouldn't SOMEONE have found a way to summon the beasties in the second of the two books?

IOW, what is it about MM2 monsters, that makes them LESS subject to Summon Monster spells than MM1 creatures ... ?

 

[drnuncheon]

The point here is: if you have a spell which can summon various beasties, based on what is in that world already ... and you have TWO books of beasties in your world ...

... why wouldn't SOMEONE have found a way to summon the beasties in the second of the two books?

You misunderstand. I was not objecting to the idea that monsters from MM2 or other books should be summonable, only to the claim that increasing player choice & versatility does not increase power.

J

 

[Pax]

some kinds of increased choice do increase power. But not all. SummonMonster is already inherently an "on the spot" versatile spell. Broadening the range of options, as the range of creatures in a campaign world increases, is IMO not an "expansion of player power", or whatever.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'll probably adding a few new monsters to that list shortly... after I surprise some of players.

I like your list. One question, though: when you list animals and beasts, you often have "template" besides them. Do you mean celestial/fiendish, or something else. I notice that you list celestial treants separately from fiendish treants, so I'm not sure.

I am also building a demonologist NPC, who gets bonuses when summoning CE critters. You don't happen to have a version of your list that is focussed on alignment, would you?

 

[green slime]

I allow the various "alignment" templates to be added to those creatures.

Along the same lines as Fiendish - Celestial, Manual of the Planes introduced Anarchaic (Chaos) - Axiomatic (Law).

And it is these four templates I allow to be added to those summoning Outsiders.

I have just recently bought Fiend Folio, and are considering allowing those using Summon Nature's Ally to add the "Wendigo" and "Feytouched" templates.

So I'll probably be revising the list soon.

As regards your second question, I do not allow clerics to summon creatures of an opposed alignment, and wizards and sorcerers struggle to control those of a differing alignment: Frequent use will likely cause an alignment change.

Thus in order to concentrate on CE, replace "template" with Anarchaic or Fiendish (possibly look towards Alienist PrC for that wierd Far Planes template (MotP, T&B)), and weed out all the remaining celestials / Devils.

I try to keep my list as generic as possible so that both I (as DM) and my players can use it.

 

[Olive]

so you don't use the elemental templates? any particular reason why not?