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D&D 5E Updating Dark Sun to 5th Ed

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Or...just ignore the parts out of the old one that you don't like?
That puts the onus of fixing the issues with the game/setting on the players, which is a great deal of work for them. The point of releasing a setting book is so players don’t have to do that kind of work.
Things are what they are. The evolution of ideas should lie in new creation, not revisionism.

To the people that like something as it is, changing it is disrespectful, and gains you nothing that you couldn't accomplish better by making something new.

It's not only mean-spirited, it's sub-optimal.
But the old material isn’t being changed. It still exists, exactly as it ever did. The new version is a new creation, inspired by the original.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
WotC should create a new setting if they cannot hack the older ones (or think their customers would reject the older ones) - a setting with the new customers' tastes and preferences in mind.
That’s exactly what they’ve done. The setting presented in Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft is not the setting presented in the 2e Ravenloft campaign setting (which is not the setting presented in I6).
 

We may be narrowing in on the essence of our disagreement, Charlaquin.

I feel a retcon is not just a newer version. It is an ex cathedra disavowal by the company of what came before, a pronunciation that "That thing didn't happen, and you are wrong if you continue to think it does."

It's insulting to anyone who loved the old version. Yes the old version still physically exists. No enforcement arm will come to your house to take it from you.

But it's still diminishing and mean and again, even worse, unnecessary.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
That’s exactly what they’ve done. The setting presented in Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft is not the setting presented in the 2e Ravenloft campaign setting (which is not the setting presented in I6).
That's a really, really excellent point: 2E Rabemloft is even more 9f a departure from Laura & Tracy Hickmans ideas than the new book is from the 2E material. In fact, the Hickmans had major input on CURSE OF Strahd, which informs this new take pretty heavily.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
We may be narrowing in on the essence of our disagreement, Charlaquin.

I feel a retcon is not just a newer version. It is an ex cathedra disavowal by the company of what came before, a pronunciation that "That thing didn't happen, and you are wrong if you continue to think it does."

It's insulting to anyone who loved the old version. Yes the old version still physically exists. No enforcement arm will come to your house to take it from you.

But it's still diminishing and mean and again, even worse, unnecessary.
The old books don't just exist in the world, WotC is still printing them and selling them.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
We may be narrowing in on the essence of our disagreement, Charlaquin.

I feel a retcon is not just a newer version. It is an ex cathedra disavowal by the company of what came before, a pronunciation that "That thing didn't happen, and you are wrong if you continue to think it does."

It's insulting to anyone who loved the old version. Yes the old version still physically exists. No enforcement arm will come to your house to take it from you.

But it's still diminishing and mean and again, even worse, unnecessary.
It isn’t a retcon though. It’s a new, separate continuity.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Updating a timeline is just railroading on a big scale
I think I agree with this? That’s kinda why metaplots went out of fashion in the early 00s. Within the same few-year timespan the World of Darkness metaplot straight-up ended, the Forgotten Realms advanced in a direction the majority of fans disliked, everyone hated the ending of Mass Effect 3 for “not respecting the players’ choices”and the entire gaming industry collectively realized, maybe metaplots are a bad idea, actually.
 


"It isn’t a retcon though. It’s a new, separate continuity."

Reboots that don't explicitly address what happened to the previous version are retcons. (The change being NONE of it happened. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)
 


AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
If you have no respect or affection for the past of something, then create something new. But don't pretend that past didn't happen. That is so much more problematic.
Because of Dark Sun’s publishing history every single person is making judgements about what they are excluding from their Athas. The original set fans choose to ignore the Revised era and the end of the Prism Pentad, like it didn’t happen.

Many fans have their reasons for imagining the life shaping never happened.

The 1e/2e era fans have their reasons for ignoring elements of the 4e Dark Sun books, like they never happened.

It is my respect and affection for the setting that drives my desire to see it updated with respect and affection.
 

MGibster

Legend
*that’s real problem with han shooting second - not that a special edition was made with changes, but that the original, unchanged version is no longer available (through normal, legal channels, anyway).
The real reason Han shooting second is a problem is because it's stupid. The scene looks silly, it doesn't make any sense, and it ruined a great scene that showed that even under pressure and at a disadvantage Han was calm, cool, and collected. It wasn't that the scene was changed it was that it was changed for the worse.

It is better to let something fade away than to change it to be something other than what it is.
How many modern adaptations of Sherlock Holmes have him taking cocaine? How many adaptations of Tarzan stories includes subtext showing white males naturally dominate no matter the circumstances? Let's take the Arthurian tales. Those have consistently been adapted over the years for different audiences. We we be better off if the Arthurian tales never changed to give us Lancelot or if Mallory never wrote Le Morte d'Arthur? Are we better off without Robin Hood because he's not the same as he was in the 1400s?

I couldn’t agree more. I would rather see new settings created than destroying ones that already exist by making them something they aren’t.
What's being destroyed here? With electronic files, aren't many of these settings far more available to the public than they were twenty years ago?

WotC should create a new setting if they cannot hack the older ones (or think their customers would reject the older ones) - a setting with the new customers' tastes and preferences in mind.
I think you're halfway right. I do think WotC should focus more on creating new settings rather than dredging up older ones. And even for me, I'm sure there's a point I might reach where I see all of the changes being made and might wonder why they even bothered with the revision.
It's insulting to anyone who loved the old version. Yes the old version still physically exists. No enforcement arm will come to your house to take it from you.
I don't feel particularly insulted by the new version of Ravenloft. I don't find change in and of itself to be offensive.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
The real reason Han shooting second is a problem is because it's stupid. The scene looks silly, it doesn't make any sense, and it ruined a great scene that showed that even under pressure and at a disadvantage Han was calm, cool, and collected. It wasn't that the scene was changed it was that it was changed for the worse.


How many modern adaptations of Sherlock Holmes have him taking cocaine? How many adaptations of Tarzan stories includes subtext showing white males naturally dominate no matter the circumstances? Let's take the Arthurian tales. Those have consistently been adapted over the years for different audiences. We we be better off if the Arthurian tales never changed to give us Lancelot or if Mallory never wrote Le Morte d'Arthur? Are we better off without Robin Hood because he's not the same as he was in the 1400s?


What's being destroyed here? With electronic files, aren't many of these settings far more available to the public than they were twenty years ago?


I think you're halfway right. I do think WotC should focus more on creating new settings rather than dredging up older ones. And even for me, I'm sure there's a point I might reach where I see all of the changes being made and might wonder why they even bothered with the revision.

I don't feel particularly insulted by the new version of Ravenloft. I don't find change in and of itself to be offensive.
Maybe those stories need to be told for what they are and not historically revised to suit the whims of pop culture.
 

briggart

Explorer
That puts the onus of fixing the issues with the game/setting on the players, which is a great deal of work for them. The point of releasing a setting book is so players don’t have to do that kind of work.
Given that 5e is predicated on players/DMs fixing issues ("Rulings not Rules") I'm not sure that point is high on WotC priorities. :)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
The real reason Han shooting second is a problem is because it's stupid. The scene looks silly, it doesn't make any sense, and it ruined a great scene that showed that even under pressure and at a disadvantage Han was calm, cool, and collected. It wasn't that the scene was changed it was that it was changed for the worse.
I mean... Yes, I agree with that. My point was more that, even if it had been a change for the better, the fact that the unchanged version isn’t available (for the general public) would still be a bad thing. And, if the original was still available, the change wouldn’t be as much of an issue.
 



transmission89

Adventurer
I've been complaining about the addition of that French upstart Lancelot since 1066 but nobody seems to share my concern.
Except that’s not really equivalent, as that’s an addition to a story, not a fundamental shift in the setting of the story. They didn’t just suddenly change the setting to, I dunno, Japan and make Mordred an upstart daimyo, replacing the lady of the lake with something from Japanese folklore.
The deadlands example also is not equivalent as it’s based on real history, leading into alternate history that had/has painful real world connections and consequences.

This whole concept is absurd. It’s like saying, do you know what? Me and some friends, we are new fans of this Star Wars thing, but can we get rid of lightsabers? And the whole force thing, and space ships. Oo, and could we add elves and dwarves to it? Don’t complain, you’ll still have the original movies, let me and my friends and new comers enjoy Star Wars for what it is now, stop gatekeeping us!

Its quite simple, if there is a setting that intrigues you, but has elements that you don’t like or make you feel uncomfortable, you have several options:

1) Don’t play it! Nobody is forcing you to!
2) Play it, but change the bits you don’t like at YOUR table. Don’t demand the baseline flavour and setting be customised to your whim.
3) Create your own setting, stealing liberally from the bits you do like!

Honestly, demanding a reboot of Dark Sun and expecting the removal of restrictions and elements that MAKE it Dark Sun would be as ludicrous as releasing a well established horror setting and demanding that you don’t scare players, or ignoring the inbuilt feature to add mini settings and lords to customise it how you want and just completely change existing things in there arbitrarily instead. It‘s completely…oh...
 

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