D&D 5E Upgrading the WoS Monk

[slightlyprime]

i thought darkness spell was a problem at first since you can't see in the spell, though then i thought darkness can be like a ninja bomb smoke bomb type thing, so a run the hell away tactic.

 

[Sacrosanct]

i thought darkness spell was a problem at first since you can't see in the spell, though then i thought darkness can be like a ninja bomb smoke bomb type thing, so a run the hell away tactic.

Also, just because you can't see while in it, you can use it as a point to shadow step to.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Meaning basically, when a WoS monk jumps into a pool of his own magically created Darkness, he's effectively blind and as hopeless as the person he targeted. Arguably for the first attack, his first attack advantage counters the darkness disadvantage but still, it feels like he's being stunted or something.

Actually, I'd say it's worse than that because the monk cannot see the target space within the area of the Darkness spell, and Shadow Step allows a teleport to a space "you can see"; however, I think the saving grace of the ability is that it works within "dim light".

The PHB definition of dim light includes the boundary of a light source, twilight and dawn, and the light of a full moon. This seems like a decent range of lightning conditions to work with - almost anything except being within direct light sources is enough to Shadow Step. Combine this with Pass without Trace (instead of Darkness, both concentration spells), and the WoS monk could be pretty hard to keep a bead on.

I admit I haven't seen it in play so this is all theorycraft, but it seems okay as it is to me.

 

[slightlyprime]

well casting darkness can also help even the playing field if you have enemies that are getting advantage from somethjng like being invisible, or something else where everyone being blinded makes you all suck. you just have to play smart when casting darkness.

 

[PnPgamer]

Well, I was going on the fact that his skills don't seem to synergize too well.
Casting Darkness as Doc Sun said would not allow me to jump from one to another unless I can say part of the body touching the shadow is sufficient to make the jump.

PnPgamer, I'm specifically adressing magical darkness which Darkvision cannot see through

Yeah sorry.

 

[Tanaka Chris]

Ah to update, I came to an accomodation with my DM. The spell Darkness is now called, 'Shades of Darkness' and applies to everyone who can cast the spell.

As casting you decide the level of darkness or shade to throw, and it remains so for the duration of the spell. So you can either cast dim light of full darkness.
Naturally, if you cast a dim light version in total darkness it does NOT brighten the area.

So if I want the Shadow Step utility, I'd have to cast the dim version.

 

[Chryssis]

Ah to update, I came to an accomodation with my DM. The spell Darkness is now called, 'Shades of Darkness' and applies to everyone who can cast the spell.

As casting you decide the level of darkness or shade to throw, and it remains so for the duration of the spell. So you can either cast dim light of full darkness.
Naturally, if you cast a dim light version in total darkness it does NOT brighten the area.

So if I want the Shadow Step utility, I'd have to cast the dim version.

I'd think rather than messing with the spell and wasting your limited casts of it, it would be much easier to just get the light cantrip. cast it on a rock, dagger, whatever. Throw the item at the person you want to smack and jump to the dim light 20ft away from them. then walk up and smack them if you want to.

 

[Tanaka Chris]

I'd think rather than messing with the spell and wasting your limited casts of it, it would be much easier to just get the light cantrip. cast it on a rock, dagger, whatever. Throw the item at the person you want to smack and jump to the dim light 20ft away from them. then walk up and smack them if you want to.

And how would I get access to the light spell exactly?
If your solution is to multiclass or use another player, that doesn't really solve the issue

Also, assuming that there will be dim light cast by a light cantrip doesn't apply in an already bright environment. It doesn't dim an areas brightness you know.

 

[Chryssis]

And how would I get access to the light spell exactly?
If your solution is to multiclass or use another player, that doesn't really solve the issue

Also, assuming that there will be dim light cast by a light cantrip doesn't apply in an already bright environment. It doesn't dim an areas brightness you know.

you get it either via being an aasimar, or multiclass, or magic initiate feat which has the benefit of also getting you another useful spell +another useful cantrip.. Also shadows are created by differing levels of light from different directions. this is why even on a very sunny day there is a dark area (and why moths fly towards a flame because the darkest spot is on the other side of it) the dim light itself doesn't help in areas of brightness but the 20ft of bright light does. 6 ft tall monster with a bright light at its feet will create a 20ftx5ft (approx) line of dim light (reducing dimness with distance depending on the ambient light). alternately depending on your setting prestidigitation or control flames, or druidcraft work equally well if light is being created by torches for example (just snuff the appropriate torch and unless the DM is specifically trying to squelch your power by placing torches every 10ft you just created a gap in the bright light)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So I was initially looking at the skill set of the Shadow monk and realize he can cast Darkness and at lvl 6, shadow step from one patch of shadow into another.
At 6th level, you gain the ability to step from one shadow into another. When you are in dim light or darkness, as a bonus action you can teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is also in dim light or darkness. You then have advantage on the first melee attack you make before the end of the turn.


Obviously I'm thinking of a character jumping from pools of his own darkness, doing surprise attacks with advantage and all.

However, the PHB has this to say about Darkness.

A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature
in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A).

Blinded -
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.

Meaning basically, when a WoS monk jumps into a pool of his own magically created Darkness, he's effectively blind and as hopeless as the person he targeted. Arguably for the first attack, his first attack advantage counters the darkness disadvantage but still, it feels like he's being stunted or something.

Now I was wondering what would be reasonable to overcome that, WITHOUT multiclassing with a Warlock to get Devil's Sight. And I think I've got it, Give all monks Blindsight of 5ft when they hit Lvl 6.

This fully fits in with the theme and scope of the warriors who fully focus on honing their bodies and senses.
I imagine the trainings include fighting blindfolded and sensing the movements of air currents around them.

It also serves as a pre cursor to his expanded skills of Evasion at lvl 7 and Diamond Soul at lvl 14.
So what do you guys think?

Whoa. While blindsight would indeed be awesome to have for all the shenanigans you could then play in Stinking Cloud etc. (blindsight + immunity to poison in a heavily obscuring poison cloud = awesomesauce), I personally don't think Shadow Monks need any more awesome than they've already got. They excel as scouts due to Pass Without Trace and teleportation, and they've excellent mage-killers as well (make three DC 16 Con checks to avoid stunning, please). They're capable both in melee and in missile duels. They don't pump out a ton of damage but they are excellent at avoiding it with the Mobile feat (poorish AC but excellent mobility), so even though their primary job is pre-combat they can still contribute during combat.

Note that my experience is with shadow monks within the context of a party with excellent ranged capabilities, where the monk doesn't need to be the DPR king because her job is to be a commando and intel specialist. That also means that in any given situation, either the ranged combatants can dominate the battlefield or the wood elf shadow monk can--it's very rare to have a situation where ranged firepower is useless and there is no dim light or natural darkness around. The only case I can think of would be a labyrinthine dungeon filled with magical darkness (so her darkvision cannot help her) but she's never run into that scenario. So the shadow monk complements archers very well, but if you have a melee-heavy party that just kicks down the next door of the dungeon and charges through, I expect shadow monks would be less useful to you.

P.S. Tip for Shadow Monk: you may have noticed that the shadow monk can invisible via the Cloak of Shadows 11th level ability until he attacks, casts a spell, or enters an area of bright light. What you may not have noticed is that this ability does not take concentration and so is fully compatible with Pass Without Trace. You can get a +10 bonus to stealth for an hour and inflict disadvantage on Perception on (almost) all your enemies (barring blindsight/tremorsense/truesight or keen hearing/etc.), which is effectively like another +5 on stealth. A trained 11th level shadow ninja with Dex 18 can get +18 on all of his stealth checks while inflicting disadvantage on all of his enemies'. I have one of these in my games and he doesn't even bother to roll his Stealth checks most of the time--we both know that only a dragon is going to have blindsight and passive Perception high enough to spot him, even if he rolls a natural 1. So I just say, "Yeah, you sneak past the vampires." It is of course a different matter once the vampires are alerted to his presence (e.g. by an attack) and actively searching for him, but even then he almost always beats their active rolls as well.

Of course, against things without darkvision you don't even need to use Cloak of Shadows, they have disadvantage on Perception checks to see you already due to light obscurement.