Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I have been doing some restructuring of the Greater God rank - I was never really happy with the spread of power in Deities & Demigods.

Essentially I propose that only Pantheon Heads (with perhaps one or two exceptions) should be actual Greater Gods.

Essentially all deities (except for Pantheon Heads) should have their Divine Rank reduced by 3.

eg. Thor (DR 18) becomes a DR15 Intermediate God.

For Average Deity Levels I propose:

Hero-deity 20-29
Demigod 30-39
Lesser God 40-59
Intermediate God 60-79
Greater God 80-119

A secondary effect of this is that we can now easily calculate Arch-Devil/Demon Prince Divine Rank.

Demons

As such Demogorgon works out at 50HD and Divine Rank 8. Kostchtchie 24HD and Divine Rank 0 etc.

Obviously a few need a kick up the backside Lolth (obviously - if you are converting her from 1st Ed.); Orcus; Yeenoghu and Baphomet.

Lolth hp x3 196 = 49HD Divine Rank 8
Orcus hp x1.5 180 = 45HD Divine Rank 7
Yeenoghu hp x1.5 150 = 37HD Divine Rank 4
Baphomet hp x1.5 159 = 39HD Divine Rank 5

Okay, why do we multiply the hit points of the above, but not the rest. Simple. We know that Lolth and Orcus are both Demon Monarchs (on the same level as Demogorgon; Graz'zt etc.); likewise we know that Baphomet and Yeenoghu are Demon Princes.

Whats the differences between Demon Monarchs and Princes.

Demon Monarchs control multiple layers and have subservient Demon Princes amongst their retinue (Yeenoghu is subservient to Graz'zt).

A Demon Prince rules at least one complete layer of the Abyss but has no other Princes subservient to them (although they could have Demon Lords in their retinue).

So Demon Monarchs are Lesser Gods and Demon Princes are Demigods.

The 666 Demon Lords are equivalent to Hero-deities.

Devils

A similar parallel exists amongst the Arch Devils.

Asmodeus; Mephistopheles and Baalzebul are Lesser Gods because the have subservient Arch-devils beneath them! If you recall the factions presented in 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes.

Other Arch-Devils (Dispater; Belial) are Demigods.
Dispater 36HD Divine Rank 4.
Belial 38HD Divine Rank 5.

The 99 Dukes of Hell are all Hero-deities.

Daemons

The Daemons are slightly similar. Anthraxus (the Overdaemon) is 58HD/DR10 leads the Diseased Eight (Demigods).

The 33 Daemon Masters are all Hero-deities.

Obviously every campaign can have its own ideas on cosmology but as an Open Cosmology this seems to make the most sense.

The reason I never hit on it before was because of Deities & Demigods flawed power sharing (which I was trying to emulate) and improper use of the Greater God status.

One last point: I advocate the rule whereby beings of a certain Divine Rank gain their immunities against those of lower rank to be changed to mean lower status instead.

ie. Demogorgon is Divine Rank 8 and Graz'zt is Divine Rank 7. However, because they are both Lesser Gods each should be able to bypass the others Divine Immunities. Although obviously as Tanar'ri they still have those innate immunities.

 

[poilbrun]

Hi poil brun mate!

Any chance you will be making it to Gencon UK mate?

Almost certainly be the first public glimpse of the IH - even though I may not be able to sell it.

I really wish I'll be able to pull it off, at least one of the three days. Unfortunately, the cost is quite high since I'd have to pay the train or plane as well as the cost for Gen Con. I'll see if I have the funds needed!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poil brun mate!

I really wish I'll be able to pull it off, at least one of the three days.

It would be great to see you there and say hello in person!

Unfortunately, the cost is quite high since I'd have to pay the train or plane as well as the cost for Gen Con.

I know exactly what you mean mate!

I'll see if I have the funds needed!

I hope you can go - but if not there is always next year mate!

 

[Knight Otu]

Hi, all!

I also suggest a few changes to the Greater God class in particular.

I am toying with the idea of suggesting all deities in D&Dg be reduced 3 Divine Ranks except the 'true' Greater Gods...?

I don't like the idea of non-pantheon heads being Greater Gods (with the possible exceptions of Boccob, Pelor and Nerull).

For a tight pantheon, as described in D&DG, this would make sense, but not really for loose pantheons, which is the default assumption in "standard D&D". Personally, I would be against such a general statement.
Even in some tight pantheons, it wouldn't really fit, for example the greek (sorry, Olympian ) pantheon: Zeus, Poseidon and Hades should propably be nearly equal in power, as they all had the same chance to become the pantheon head. Of course, Zeus should be the most powerful among the three.

I mean what was the point of introducing the Intermediate God class in the first place if it wasn't to seperate the 'true' Greater Gods (Pantheon Heads) from merely 'Gods'!?

I'd argue that it is about the concepts that the gods represent. Some gods represent "Greater" concepts, and are thus Greater Gods. Some gods represent several "Intermediate" concept, and are also greater gods. If they just represent a few Intermediate concepts, the are Intemediate gods. This goes down to "Lesser" and "Demi" concepts, and up to (using your Divine Ranks) "Elder" concepts and "Over" concepts, and possibly "Temporal" (lacking a better name) for Time Lords. (Though I cannot really come up with a name for the concepts that Entities represent - maybe "True" or "Essential" concepts?)

Do any of my above words actually make sense?

For Average Deity Levels I propose:

Hero-deity 20-29
Demigod 30-39
Lesser God 40-59
Intermediate God 60-79
Greater God 80-119

I suppose this is with the 20 Outsider HD?
It seems similar to the average levels I have toyed with for the gods:
In addition to the 20 Outsider HD, I'd give gods the following class levels:
Demigod: 20
Lesser God: 40
Intermdiate God:60
Greater God: 80
Pantheon Head: +10 above the normal average.

It would seem that my averages are on the high side in your system?

On a side note - I have toyed with the idea of making all gods Paragons (as I don't have the ELH yet, I don't know how much overlap there is, but it doesn't seem too much). Would that be a good idea?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi, all!

Hi Knight Otu mate!

For a tight pantheon, as described in D&DG, this would make sense, but not really for loose pantheons, which is the default assumption in "standard D&D". Personally, I would be against such a general statement.

I agree which was why I mentioned that Boccob; Nerull and Pelor would be notable exemptions.

Even in some tight pantheons, it wouldn't really fit, for example the greek (sorry, Olympian ) pantheon: Zeus, Poseidon and Hades should propably be nearly equal in power, as they all had the same chance to become the pantheon head. Of course, Zeus should be the most powerful among the three.

I don't know about Poseidon and Hades - they are not in a position to contest power with Zeus. I would say DR15 for both.

Osiris, or a being that is known to rule the Pantheon at some point (Tezcatlipoca or Marduk) would be the only such Greater Gods that weren't Pantheon Heads as I can see. Likewise the Hindu trinity (Brahma; Shiva and Vishnu) would be Greater Gods, and I am sure there would be others.

I'd argue that it is about the concepts that the gods represent. Some gods represent "Greater" concepts, and are thus Greater Gods. Some gods represent several "Intermediate" concept, and are also greater gods. If they just represent a few Intermediate concepts, the are Intemediate gods. This goes down to "Lesser" and "Demi" concepts, and up to (using your Divine Ranks) "Elder" concepts and "Over" concepts, and possibly "Temporal" (lacking a better name) for Time Lords. (Though I cannot really come up with a name for the concepts that Entities represent - maybe "True" or "Essential" concepts?)

Do any of my above words actually make sense?

As I see it though 'personalities' are more individual than concept orientated.

ie. Thor is not the epitome of Thunder, but rather a larger than life character with his own agenda and goals.

Its not until Elder or Overdeity status that the concept begins to take over the individual and from that point on the goals and the concept are interchangeable.

I suppose this is with the 20 Outsider HD?

Yes. Including HD.

It seems similar to the average levels I have toyed with for the gods:
In addition to the 20 Outsider HD, I'd give gods the following class levels:
Demigod: 20
Lesser God: 40
Intermdiate God:60
Greater God: 80
Pantheon Head: +10 above the normal average.

Even though such figures are mere averages I just prefer a system that comfortably scales.

It would seem that my averages are on the high side in your system?

My averages are:

Hero-deity 25th
Demigod 35th
Lesser God 50th
Intermediate God 70th
Greater God 100th

So your averages are on the low side.

On a side note - I have toyed with the idea of making all gods Paragons (as I don't have the ELH yet, I don't know how much overlap there is, but it doesn't seem too much). Would that be a good idea?

Are all gods Paragons though!? I don't think so.

I don't have the ELH yet myself so I am not totally sure about the idea.

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings people!

It has been a while, but I thought I should drop in anyhow (-:

I was just reading through the last entries in this thread, and I was wondering: Will you include new salient abilities for Overgods and Entities and the like? An example of the power of such an ability would be interesting to see...

Applying the Paragon Template to all gods is not a good idea in my opinion! The power level of a creature using that template is far greater than what is implied in the ELH. The bonus hit points, max hit points and such will be even more prominent at higher levels, although the power level relatively (its CR-modifier) will be less.

I also believe that some SDAs should be modified so that immunities are not present, only great resistance. For example the one that makes a deity immune to different effects, but especially those that don't grant a mortal a saving throw, for example Life and Death. How is a mortal to defeat a god if he has no chance of surviving? (Divine Splendor)

At first glance I also thought that giving wizards spontaneous casting ability also was unbalancing, but as sorcerers have charisma as their primary ability, that's not so any longer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings people!

Eä mate!

It has been a while, but I thought I should drop in anyhow (-:

Great to see you! Hope you are keeping well!?

I was just reading through the last entries in this thread, and I was wondering: Will you include new salient abilities for Overgods and Entities and the like?

Yes and no.

I have about 50 new Salient Divine Abilities but they still represent the standard divine powers.

The really powerful abilities are the Esoteric Divine Powers.

These are (near) infinite abilities. Technically any deity can gain them (I won't go into details about how right now though).

An example of the power of such an ability would be interesting to see...

Lets see...without trying to give anything away:

In Norse mythology Odins Spear Gungnir never missed (that would be an example of an esoteric power in a weapon; specifically the "Unerring" special ability).

There are so many interesting ideas that I really don't want to spoil the surprises.

Applying the Paragon Template to all gods is not a good idea in my opinion! The power level of a creature using that template is far greater than what is implied in the ELH. The bonus hit points, max hit points and such will be even more prominent at higher levels, although the power level relatively (its CR-modifier) will be less.

I agree.

I also believe that some SDAs should be modified so that immunities are not present, only great resistance. For example the one that makes a deity immune to different effects, but especially those that don't grant a mortal a saving throw, for example Life and Death. How is a mortal to defeat a god if he has no chance of surviving? (Divine Splendor)

I have redesigned about 15 Salient Divine Abilities in D&Dg. Off hand I know 'Splendor' is one of them, possibly Life and Death, I'll have to check.

At first glance I also thought that giving wizards spontaneous casting ability also was unbalancing, but as sorcerers have charisma as their primary ability, that's not so any longer.

Okay.

Do you have the Epic Level Handbook yet Eä mate?

 

[Gez]

...see what you have started Gez...

I am the ravager ! Mwahahah !





Hum...


Soooorry !

Are all gods Paragons though!? I don't think so.

It depends on the Pantheon used. In a D&D pantheon, with deicide, mortals becoming gods, and all that business; no. They are individuals who may be paragon, but that ain't necessary. However, Moradin may be seen as a paragon dwarf, Kurtulmak as a paragon Kobold, Bahamut as a paragon Dragon, etc.

I'd argue that it is about the concepts that the gods represent. Some gods represent "Greater" concepts, and are thus Greater Gods. Some gods represent several "Intermediate" concept, and are also greater gods. If they just represent a few Intermediate concepts, the are Intemediate gods. This goes down to "Lesser" and "Demi" concepts, and up to (using your Divine Ranks) "Elder" concepts and "Over" concepts, and possibly "Temporal" (lacking a better name) for Time Lords. (Though I cannot really come up with a name for the concepts that Entities represent - maybe "True" or "Essential" concepts?)[/B]

This reminds me somewhat of what I've heard of a strange RPG, called "Nobilis", in which you play "low-level deities" under the order of broader, more powerful ones. I havn't read it, but it seemed a bit weird.

Originally posted by Eä
At first glance I also thought that giving wizards spontaneous casting ability also was unbalancing, but as sorcerers have charisma as their primary ability, that's not so any longer.

I'm missing one step of the logic here...

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings again!

Three posts in a day! I am improving upon myself (-;

Yes, I am keeping well...I'm currently improving my mathematics skills, especially in probability theory and statistics, which actually is fun... I have created some systems which are simpler to use when you are throwing an enormous amount of dice (although you need a calculator to use them (-; ) I hope everyone here is keeping well, as well (-:

Ahh, yes, I have received the Epic Level Handbook now, and to be frank, I think the book gives us exactly the information we need... There are some minor bugs in the book, like Psionics, which is overpowered currently (considering that if you use the Improved Metapsionic feat, you will be able to enhance psionics using only one power point extra, and thus scaling better than wizards' spells)
Personally I like the Epic Spellcasting system. The only thing with that is that you need a magic item which gives you approximatelly the same bonus as your level to make sure that the saving throws are not left behind. This is a minor issue, which is easiliy fixed. And altogether I love this idea.
Epic Monsters: I don't care that much about monsters, but I like the templates, the force dragons and the mercanes. I think I will be playing one just to check it out sometime.
One thing that bothers me, though, is that many of the SDA in D&Dg and the Epic Feats overlap, not even requiring them as prerequisites. This may lead to tons of "wasted" feats, but I guess it would be easy to free feat slots as well, using Wish or something similar. I'm thinnking especially on Improved Spell Capacity and Divine Spellcasting.

Overall, I like the book very much, although it takes plenty of time creating "real" epic characters.


One thing that bothers me is that skill points and intelligence isn't retroactive! The book keeping is terrible when creating high level characters, and I advocate house ruling when assigning skill points. Or else it takes too much time for the DM in my opinion...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Gez mate!

I am the ravager ! Mwahahah !

This reminds me somewhat of what I've heard of a strange RPG, called "Nobilis", in which you play "low-level deities" under the order of broader, more powerful ones. I havn't read it, but it seemed a bit weird.

You mean theres a deity-centric RPG out there I don't yet own!?

I'll have to check that out.

For those that revere the Primal Order (no pun intended) my copy of that arrived last week (almost 7 weeks after I had made the actual purchase on ebay).