Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Quick question...

Are you guys still heavily "in process" or approaching a completed product?

Thanks.

If Deities & Demigods entered the SRD today I could have the first section ready within two weeks; with each subsequent section about an extra two weeks.

I have practically all of it written; just not all of it, as yet, typed up. Also if I rework elements (which I constantly do) I always write the material on paper rather than type it (probably a habit I should try and shake). So if I have sections I think I might tweak I probably won't have typed it up fully yet until I'm totally happy with it.

 

[Anubis]

I think he was asking about the ECL/CR system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I think he was asking about the ECL/CR system.

DOH!

I thought the use of the phrase 'you guys' seemed a tad incongruous.

I think I have cracked the ECL/CR system. There could be some minutiae I have missed; I'll post my results when I am satisfied (and more to the point have them typed up, to facilitate a copy and paste job)

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Looking forward to it!

(Yes, the final product of the ECL/CR system you guys have been slowly buy surely cobbling together.

 

[S'mon]

Not that I am aware of. There is no such errata. Zombies do indeed get only partial actions.

Zombies only get partial actions. However the rules on Charging (not properly explained in the PHB) allow for Partial Charges where you can move your base move in a straight line and attack (with +2 to-hit, -2 AC). You can also attack once & 5' step in a partial action. This rule works fine for man-sized zombies but makes giant zombies very weak because the MM puts most of a giant's power in its multiple attacks, somewhat illogically. They would have done better to scale up damage for larger-than-mansized and restrict multiple attacks to those with a 'class' BAB of 6+, ie Monster HD BAB shouldn't have been granted multiple attacks.

 

[S'mon]

CRs

I don't think a Skeleton is CR1, it has poor hp and can easily be Turned by 1st level Cleric. Indeed, a 2nd level cleric will Destroy it with a successful turn! I'd say CR 1/2, the MM CR 1/3 does seem to assume an Iconic party of Jozan, Lidda, Tordek/Regdar & Mialee. Zombies are tough though (16 hp!) the rated CR 1/2 is very low, more like 3/4 or a weak CR1. Big problem is there's no CR 3/4 in the book. MM orcs with their ATT+3/d12+3 dmg are also more like CR 3/4, especially if you're an evil DM like me who swaps their Alertness for Toughness...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

Looking forward to it!

(Yes, the final product of the ECL/CR system you guys have been slowly buy surely cobbling together.

Thanks mate!

They would have done better to scale up damage for larger-than-mansized and restrict multiple attacks to those with a 'class' BAB of 6+, ie Monster HD BAB shouldn't have been granted multiple attacks.

Absolutely.

I don't think a Skeleton is CR1, it has poor hp and can easily be Turned by 1st level Cleric. Indeed, a 2nd level cleric will Destroy it with a successful turn! I'd say CR 1/2, the MM CR 1/3 does seem to assume an Iconic party of Jozan, Lidda, Tordek/Regdar & Mialee. Zombies are tough though (16 hp!) the rated CR 1/2 is very low, more like 3/4 or a weak CR1. Big problem is there's no CR 3/4 in the book. MM orcs with their ATT+3/d12+3 dmg are also more like CR 3/4, especially if you're an evil DM like me who swaps their Alertness for Toughness....

This probably comes down to how you rate Undeath.

If we rate Undeath at +3 ECL then the Zombie is CR1/2. If we rate Undeath at +3.5 ECL then the Zombie is CR1.

Undeath

Immune to Mind-Influencing Effects +1/2 ECL
Immune to Poison & Disease +1/2 ECL
Immune to Critical Hits +1/2 ECL
Immune to Paralysis; Sleep; Stunning & Subdual Damage +1/2 ECL
Immune to Ability Score Damage +1/2 ECL
Immune to Energy Drain +1/2 ECL

So far +3 ECL.

But (even though its omitted from their individual desriptions) shouldn't they be Immune to Death Magic as well (as per MM pg.6)?

Of course the difference of CR1/2 is somewhat negligable.

 

[Xeriar]

This probably comes down to how you rate Undeath.

If we rate Undeath at +3 ECL then the Zombie is CR1/2. If we rate Undeath at +3.5 ECL then the Zombie is CR1.

Undeath

Immune to Mind-Influencing Effects +1/2 ECL
Immune to Poison & Disease +1/2 ECL
Immune to Critical Hits +1/2 ECL
Immune to Paralysis; Sleep; Stunning & Subdual Damage +1/2 ECL
Immune to Ability Score Damage +1/2 ECL
Immune to Energy Drain +1/2 ECL

So far +3 ECL.

But (even though its omitted from their individual desriptions) shouldn't they be Immune to Death Magic as well (as per MM pg.6)?

Of course the difference of CR1/2 is somewhat negligable.

Immunity to energy drain and death magic really shouldn't count for undead - they are subject to these things the other way around - cure light wounds, raise dead, etc. You should only give that bonus if the penalty doesn't overcome it. Also, all undead are destroyed at 0 hp - no coming back for them, unless they're a vampire or lich, really.

Zombies also only get partial actions - they cannot run, and they're also mindless. They don't avoid traps, they walk into ambushes, etc. They do have an extra hit die, but that's about all they have going for them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Xeriar mate!

Immunity to energy drain and death magic really shouldn't count for undead - they are subject to these things the other way around - cure light wounds, raise dead, etc. You should only give that bonus if the penalty doesn't overcome it

Interesting idea! I like it.

Also, all undead are destroyed at 0 hp - no coming back for them, unless they're a vampire or lich, really.

I had already taken that into consideration.

Zombies also only get partial actions - they cannot run, and they're also mindless. They don't avoid traps, they walk into ambushes, etc. They do have an extra hit die, but that's about all they have going for them.

I had taken all the zombies bonuses and penalties into account. Like I said the rating of Undeath was the only partially ambiguous factor.

Thanks for the help mate!

 

[S'mon]

Rating CRs vs Iconics

Of course if you take it that CRs need to be rated vs a 'Core' PC party comprising Tordek, Mialee, Jozan & Lidda, you can't then start giving them non-Core Book stuff like Weapons of True Striking! The default is PHB & DMG only. Balancing CRs against PCs using every supplement out there (whether WotC or not) is an impossible and thankless task. This is one reason I wasn't happy with the playtest 'deity vs PCs' match we did.