Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

First off, about armor damage . . . The PH already has rules for repairing armor, so just use that instead of making an entirely new system for it. It's under the Craft skill.

Now, onto my next point.

DRAGONS.

Going by the original idea UK and I had of ECL and CR . . . I have figured out dragons without the use of a complex formula. Thanks to their advance rates and their attack bonus and saves, it's easy!

Now I will state that I will still (for now) use the modifications to CR for ECL . . . Meaning that above 20, you get 1 CR for 2 ECL, etc., etc., etc.

Moving on . . . Simply put, the ECL (or effective power rating, EPR, as I now call it to seperate my term from ECL) of Medium-Size Dragon is equal to its HD. This changes on size. Here is a table:

Dragon Size : EPR
Tiny : HD - 2
Small : HD - 1
Medium-Size : HD
Large : HD + 1
Huge : HD + 2
Gargantuan : HD + 3
Colossal : HD + 4

See? SIMPLE! Based on my research, this works PERFECTLY! You see, one thing always forgotten is TACTICS. If you look at dragons' Intelligence, you'll see that they quite smart. With larger dragons, this MUST be taken into account, because of the wide array of dragon powers. Some might think a Great Red Wyrm isn't EPR 44 (CR 31), but I guarantee that these numbers work perfectly, as I have recently tested them.

Anyway, UK, I hope you can find these numbers useful. After all, dragons were always a problem child when it came to figuring these numbers out. This is one less problem to deal with!

 

[Buddha the DM]

Anubis: If you're right on the ECL/EPR for dragons, I know several people that'll hate you if I ever get to run a game again.

 

[Anubis]

Anubis: If you're right on the ECL/EPR for dragons, I know several people that'll hate you if I ever get to run a game again.

Why is that? Currently, if you use the CR from the MM as-is, you'll start killing off your players with Mature Adult and Old dragons, assuming you play them according to their intelligence. Using this system, dragons are FINALLY rated correctly, meaning parties have a chance at winning against the more powerful dragons.

So why would they hate me?

 

[Buddha the DM]

Not mad in a bad way like you contradicted something that was already in use. But rather something that I could do with what you came up with.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi sonofapreacherman mate!

It seems straightforward enough but I would generally leave armour alone unless specifically subjected to an attack (sundering etc.).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

DRAGONS.

Going by the original idea UK and I had of ECL and CR . . .

Remember I am now using CR and EL as per the new rules.

I have figured out dragons without the use of a complex formula. Thanks to their advance rates and their attack bonus and saves, it's easy!

Funny you mention dragons I actually worked out a quick and simple formula for devising their CR...I'll post it at the end of this reply.

Now I will state that I will still (for now) use the modifications to CR for ECL . . . Meaning that above 20, you get 1 CR for 2 ECL, etc., etc., etc.

Thats wrong under the revised rules.

Moving on . . . Simply put, the ECL (or effective power rating, EPR, as I now call it to seperate my term from ECL) of Medium-Size Dragon is equal to its HD. This changes on size. Here is a table:

Dragon Size : EPR
Tiny : HD - 2
Small : HD - 1
Medium-Size : HD
Large : HD + 1
Huge : HD + 2
Gargantuan : HD + 3
Colossal : HD + 4

See? SIMPLE! Based on my research, this works PERFECTLY!

Funny you mentioned it according to my calculations the CR of a Wyrmling Dragon is always the same as its Hit Dice!

You see, one thing always forgotten is TACTICS. If you look at dragons' Intelligence, you'll see that they quite smart. With larger dragons, this MUST be taken into account, because of the wide array of dragon powers. Some might think a Great Red Wyrm isn't EPR 44 (CR 31), but I guarantee that these numbers work perfectly, as I have recently tested them.

Actually I tested every Great Wyrm against a single Fighter equal to its CR and they all worked out more or less 50/50 encounters.

Anyway, UK, I hope you can find these numbers useful. After all, dragons were always a problem child when it came to figuring these numbers out. This is one less problem to deal with!

Indeed. In fact I even rate them more powerful than you now!

Here is the quick method though:

Wyrmling CR = its HD

ie. Wyrmling Black Dragon (4 HD) = CR 4

Each age category adds a set figure to CR based on the opening HD:

1 HD (wyrmling); add +3 CR/additional age
2 HD (wyrmling); add +3.2 CR/additional age
3 HD (wyrmling); add +3.4 CR/additional age (eg. white)
4 HD (wyrmling); add +3.6 CR/additional age (eg. black)
5 HD (wyrmling); add +3.8 CR/additional age (eg. green)
6 HD (wyrmling); add +4 CR/additional age (eg. blue)
7 HD (wyrmling); add +4.2 CR/additional age (eg. red)
8 HD (wyrmling); add +4.4 CR/additional age (eg. gold)
9 HD (wyrmling); add +4.6 CR/additional age
10 HD (wyrmling); add +4.8 CR/additional age

etc.

20 HD (wyrmling); add 6.8 CR/additional age (eg. force)

23 HD (wyrmling); add 7.4 CR/additional age (eg. prismatic)

Example: Blue Dragon

Wyrmling (6 HD) = CR 6
Very Young = CR 10
Young = CR 14
Juvenile = CR 18
Young Adult = CR 22
Adult = CR 26
Mature Adult = CR 30
Old = CR 34
Very Old = CR 38
Ancient = CR 42
Wyrm = CR 46
Great Wyrm = CR 50

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

I checked your ebay sale mate; very nice.

Is the Mystic Russia the book with the Russian deities in it (including Kostchtchie I think)? If so how many deities does it detail?

Also let me just say to everyone here that one of the books in Buddhas ebay sale: 'Pantheons of the Megaverse' is fantastic and in the highly recommended section of the Immortals Handbook bibliography!

 

[-Eä-]

Example: Blue Dragon

Wyrmling (6 HD) = CR 6
Very Young = CR 10
Young = CR 14
Juvenile = CR 18
Young Adult = CR 22
Adult = CR 26
Mature Adult = CR 30
Old = CR 34
Very Old = CR 38
Ancient = CR 42
Wyrm = CR 46
Great Wyrm = CR 50

Hmm.... So you don't account for ability scores when dealing with dragons!? They can be different, most definitelly, can they not?

This is very important for the modularity of the system, in my opinion, so I take that you just forgot them in the rush?

 

[Buddha the DM]

Hi Buddha mate!

I checked your ebay sale mate; very nice.

Is the Mystic Russia the book with the Russian deities in it (including Kostchtchie I think)? If so how many deities does it detail?

Also let me just say to everyone here that one of the books in Buddhas ebay sale: 'Pantheons of the Megaverse' is fantastic and in the highly recommended section of the Immortals Handbook bibliography!

Yeah, Koshchei the Deathless Ones are in there. None that I can see that are specifically named. But there are plenty of generic demons and the like in there. Did you see anything at my ebay sale that you wanted?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Eä mate!

Hmm.... So you don't account for ability scores when dealing with dragons!? They can be different, most definitelly, can they not?

I do account for ability scores with dragons.

Remember that I stated above this was simply a 'quick' method of determining Dragon CR. It incorporates every dragon ability.

I worked out the CR for every Wyrmling; then every Great Wyrm. Then (for the sake of brevity) used the above method to determine the age categories in between. The above method was approx. 90-95% accurate when held up against my CR system.

So I reiterate again; the above is simply a 'quick' method of determining Dragon CR!

This is very important for the modularity of the system, in my opinion, so I take that you just forgot them in the rush?

Nope. I forget nothing.

Considering you already have my revised CR/EL system with the Great Wyrm Red Dragon example (among others) you should know exactly how I determine CR.

I have simply found that determining Dragon CRs en masse is somewhat pedantic. So now you have the 'quick' option that gives you 90-95% accuracy anyway. So instead of having to work out 60 CRs for the Gem Dragons in MM2 I only need look at the HD for the five wyrmlings and I can extrapolate the rest in under a minute.