Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

no, no, no!

With my method, it would be SR 53 (CR+11), and the caster level check of a level 72 character would be 1d20+38

But the caster level check is not based of challenge rating!? Are you saying that should change? I'm not sure I agree with such a proposal.

I think its better to modify Spell Resistance than the fundamental of Caster Level Check.

The SR of the great red wyrm wouldn't change.

Then for their CR they have very low SR.

This would ensure that in the ECL variation of 16 between CR55 and CR56, the SR represent the same challenge, and not an almost impossible one up to a too easy one while staying on the same CR.

I'm not happy messing too much with this. Also, as I mentioned Spell Resistance becomes less and less of an issue the higher you ascend anyway.

 

[Anubis]

I meant perhaps each 5/+1 should represent +1/4 ECL (or something other than a half etc.)

Ah. Yeah, that could work. Has potential. I still think maybe I already solved the problem though with my previous post.

I'll see about conjuring up a miracle then!

Why do we need a "simple" system? It's not like the changes I propose *overly* complicate matters. Either way, you still probably need a calculator and a sheet with the conversions.

The whole point of the system is lost then. Either it works for all equally or it works for none.

Not really. Dragons are already handled differently than any other type of creature, and deities have their own book!

Incidentally, I have recalculated the ECL of Quasi-deities, and strangely enough, counting all of their abilities, I came up with . . . ECL +12 . . .

You must remember that Divine Rank 0 does NOT have immunity to electricity, cold, or acid, as you seem to believe.

As to your argument, "Why do they say Divine Rank 1 yada yada yada and then say Divine Rank 1 yada yada yada?", well, I can answer that now.

The statement about the energy immunities is in a seperate text block than the statement about poison and disease immunity.

For Divine Rank 1, you get ECL +24 under this new guideline.

Anyway, consider that. I'll have more on other Divine Ranks soon, but it is NOT an incremental increase by any stretch of the imagination.

Its only complex if you make it complex.

Actually, it's complex by design.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Ah. Yeah, that could work. Has potential. I still think maybe I already solved the problem though with my previous post.

Actually I have kept +0.5 ECL per 5/+1 and it now works okay.

Why do we need a "simple" system? It's not like the changes I propose *overly* complicate matters. Either way, you still probably need a calculator and a sheet with the conversions.

Thats just it though. I want to be able to glance at a monster entry and work out the CR in less than 30 seconds, all without a calculator.

Regarding the new system I was initially reticent about the ability scores but it was pretty simple when I got down to it.

I also don't like giving different powers a variable; obviously there are exceptions that have to be accomodated (ability scores; damage reduction; spell resistance; regeneration etc.) but giving a big list of powers with variable modifiers is a waste of time in my opinion.

Not really. Dragons are already handled differently than any other type of creature, and deities have their own book!

But using that logic everything is handled differently.

Incidentally, I have recalculated the ECL of Quasi-deities, and strangely enough, counting all of their abilities, I came up with . . . ECL +12 . . .

You must remember that Divine Rank 0 does NOT have immunity to electricity, cold, or acid, as you seem to believe.

I already gave my evidence to this - its obvious they DO gain those abilities. Its simply a WotC typo.

By the way does that mean if you add those abilities the Quasi-deity template works out at ECL+14 mate?

As to your argument, "Why do they say Divine Rank 1 yada yada yada and then say Divine Rank 1 yada yada yada?", well, I can answer that now.

The statement about the energy immunities is in a seperate text block than the statement about poison and disease immunity.

Red herring!

As far as I can see the evidence speaks for itself.

For Divine Rank 1, you get ECL +24 under this new guideline.

Anyway, consider that. I'll have more on other Divine Ranks soon, but it is NOT an incremental increase by any stretch of the imagination.

You could probably make a case that Divine Rank 6 bestows more abilities and as such is worth more than the +4 I suggest for each Divine Rank? But its probably a negligable difference.

Regarding Greater Deities I don't allow them an 'Auto Perfect' on any dice rolls. So I'm not factoring that (although you can gain such an ability)

Also I am advocating that deities only gain 1 SDA per Divine Rank (none of this bonus SDAs for Divine Status). However, I may have Divine Blast and Divine Shield as automatic additions to the Demigod Template...?

Actually, it's complex by design.

Yes, but one complication rather than two is the lesser of the two evils here.

 

[Anubis]

Actually I have kept +0.5 ECL per 5/+1 and it now works okay.

Eh . . . I dunno about this . . . Doing it that way, some creatures will be given more ECL than they are worth.

By the way, you do give the "magic immunity" of golems more than ECL +1/2, right? If not, you are underestimating them badly, because magic immunity is more powerful than the Divine Immunities of deities!

Thats just it though. I want to be able to glance at a monster entry and work out the CR in less than 30 seconds, all without a calculator.

That may be possible with normal monsters, but when it comes to Epic monsters, that just ain't gonna happen.

Besides, you need a calculator to get the base ECL modifier for HD. Or can you do that in your head?

Regarding the new system I was initially reticent about the ability scores but it was pretty simple when I got down to it.

Do you count having no particular ability score as having a 0 in that score, or do you not count it at all? I think you should not count it all all, because having a 0 means that you get penalties. See my other post for my explanations as to why it should be different for Str, Dex, and Con as opposed to Int, Wis, and Cha.

By the way, I also advocate for deities that each score get a flat Divine bonus of +10, instead of the character getting +60 to divvy out.

I also don't like giving different powers a variable; obviously there are exceptions that have to be accomodated (ability scores; damage reduction; spell resistance; regeneration etc.) but giving a big list of powers with variable modifiers is a waste of time in my opinion.

Yeah, because some of those powers are also more useful to some creatures than others. Something with Cha 255 that has no abilities that have anything to do with Cha will get nothing from the score. Well, except maybe a lot of booty, but . . .

But using that logic everything is handled differently.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that dragons in and of themselves are handled differently. They have many things other creatures do not have.

That's what you think!

I already gave my evidence to this - its obvious they DO gain those abilities. Its simply a WotC typo.

I already countered your evidence though. You simply failed to see the subject break. As for the "Web Enhancement", well, I think THAT was the typo. I would be interested in hearing what the Sage or Monte or Andy have to say about it. Perhaps we should ask them directly before proceeding?

By the way does that mean if you add those abilities the Quasi-deity template works out at ECL+14 mate?

Actually, no, the Quasi-deity then works out to ECL +16.

Red herring!

As far as I can see the evidence speaks for itself.

Yes, I think we should contact one of the designers or someone else with WotC and ask if it were a typo or not. If it were a typo, I think we would have heard by now.

We'll see!

You could probably make a case that Divine Rank 6 bestows more abilities and as such is worth more than the +4 I suggest for each Divine Rank? But its probably a negligable difference.

Regarding Greater Deities I don't allow them an 'Auto Perfect' on any dice rolls. So I'm not factoring that (although you can gain such an ability)

Also I am advocating that deities only gain 1 SDA per Divine Rank (none of this bonus SDAs for Divine Status). However, I may have Divine Blast and Divine Shield as automatic additions to the Demigod Template...?

Regarding SDAs per Divine Rank, I think that perhaps you are being a bit harsh. There is no problem with giving an extra per Divine Status.

As for Divine Blast and Divine Shield, I would say a definite NO to Divine Blast, and probably no to Divine Shiled as well, or maybe . . .

Replace the SDA per Divine Status with SPECIFIC SDAs. This would be a combination of your previous two ideas. Perhaps "bonus SDAs" . . .

Demigod (DvR 1): Divine Shield
Lesser Deity (DvR 6): Avatar
Intermediate Deity (Dv 11): Annihilating Strike
Greater Deity (Dv 16): Divine Splendor

I dunno . . . Either keep the SDA per Divine Status, OR replace it with specific SDAs at specific Dinve Status, but NOT both.

Yes, but one complication rather than two is the lesser of the two evils here.

You have no idea how NOT complicated my system is. Once I've finished testing, I'll let you know. I think MOST of our ideas should come out similar, but I already know some things we differ on.

 

[Knight Otu]

Besides, you need a calculator to get the base ECL modifier for HD. Or can you do that in your head?

I believe the multipliers are still 3/4, 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4? Then, at least I can do most of them in my head (though at times I get lazy and use a calculator for that).

 

[Anubis]

I have e-mailed James Wyatt (one of the creators of Deities & Demigods) and asked him when deities get electricity, cold, and acid immunity. I will post his response here as soon as I receive it.

 

[Anubis]

The Verdict

Well, I received an e-mail from James Wyatt himself today, and he made everything quite clear. It looks as though I (and the book) was wrong, and that UK had guessed correctly.



Here is what I wrote, quote:

"My friends and I have been having a little debate about some of the stuff in Deities & Demigods, and I finally deicded to go straight to the source. As one of the creators of Deities & Demigods, perhaps you can enlighten us.

On page 26 under "Immunities", there is the following:

Energy Immunity: Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.

A friend of mine believes that the part about "Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid" is a typo, however, and that those immunities are instead granted at divine rank 0. He cites the fact that in the Web Enhancement, the sample Quasi-deity has the electricity, cold, and acid immunities at divine rank 0.

I, however, believe that the typo is actually in the Web Enhancement, and that the text in Deities & Demigods is, in fact, correct.

That is my question today. Does a deity get immunity to electricity, cold, and acid at divine rank 1 (as per Deities & Demigods) or divine rank 0 (as per the Web Enhancement)? Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time, and I await what you have to say on the matter. Thanks you again.

-Brandon Harwell"



Here is the official reply from James Wyatt, one of the creators of Deities & Demigods, and I quote:

"Hi Brandon--

There are a very few divine rank 0 deities in the actual book as well as in the web enhancement (mostly in the Asgardian pantheon--Skirnir and the Jotunheim giants), and they all agree with the web enhancement. I checked an earlier file of the manuscript and I see that it used to be quite clear in the text that all deities are immune to acid, cold, and electricity, even at divine rank 0. So your friend is correct, sorry to say.

I'll try to make sure this gets addressed in the errata.

Thanks for writing!

James"



So there you have it. If you combined that with the idea that all six ability scores are equal, which I still find questionable although it makes the calculations much easier, the Quasi-deity works out to be ECL +16 as follows:

ECL +1 for 100% increase over normal movement
ECL +6 for +60 Divine Bonus to ability scores
ECL +1/2 for DR 24/+4
ECL +1 for Fire Resistance 20
ECL +2 for SR 30
ECL +1 for Transmutation Immunity
ECL +1 for Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Ability Damage Immunity
ECL +1 for Mind-Affecting Effect Immunity
ECL +3 for Electricity, Cold, and Acid Immunity

Now Divine Rank 1 works out to be ECL +24 (if you decide to give SDAs per divine rank and NOT for divine status) or ECL +25 (if you decide to give SDAs as per the rules in Deities & Demigods), as follows:

ECL +1 or +2 for Salient Divine Abilities
ECL +1 for no automatic failure on "1"
ECL +1 for Disease, Poison, Stun, Sleep, Paralysis, Death, and Disintegrate Immunity
ECL +3 for Domain Powers and Spell-Like Abilities
ECL +1 for Portfolio and Create Magic Items
ECL +1 for Divine Aura



Anyway, I think that covers everything. Sheesh . . . To believe that even UK once considered Divine Rank 0 to be ECL +8 . . .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Eh . . . I dunno about this . . . Doing it that way, some creatures will be given more ECL than they are worth.

Any examples?

By the way, you do give the "magic immunity" of golems more than ECL +1/2, right? If not, you are underestimating them badly, because magic immunity is more powerful than the Divine Immunities of deities!

Remember that Magic Immunity for constructs also means they can't benefit from magic either, so its a double edge sword. That said however I agree that the Magic Immunity ability is very powerful (more so than the standard figure I give).

I suggest a +3 ECL (I rate SDAs at +1 as it happens).

Iron Golem: CR13
Stone Golem: CR11
Clay Golem: CR10
Flesh Golem: CR8

There are a few powers in the ELH that also should rate higher than the standard +0.5.

That may be possible with normal monsters, but when it comes to Epic monsters, that just ain't gonna happen.

Besides, you need a calculator to get the base ECL modifier for HD. Or can you do that in your head?

I can discern a CR for any monster in less than 30 seconds (under the new system) without a calculator, and I'm no maths wizard (hello Ea mate).

Do you count having no particular ability score as having a 0 in that score, or do you not count it at all? I think you should not count it all all, because having a 0 means that you get penalties.

Thats right, I don't count it at all.

See my other post for my explanations as to why it should be different for Str, Dex, and Con as opposed to Int, Wis, and Cha.

I did, see my rebuttal.

By the way, I also advocate for deities that each score get a flat Divine bonus of +10, instead of the character getting +60 to divvy out.

I don't like this idea. Totally destroys flexibility. It also means that deities can have no weak stats - which is totally incongruous with mythology (Hercules did not have Einstein level intellect no matter what Deities & Demigods says).

Yeah, because some of those powers are also more useful to some creatures than others. Something with Cha 255 that has no abilities that have anything to do with Cha will get nothing from the score. Well, except maybe a lot of booty, but . . .

A Hill giant with a 255 Charisma would be bigger than Elvis...any which way you slice it in fact.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that dragons in and of themselves are handled differently. They have many things other creatures do not have.

Like what?

That's what you think!

I already countered your evidence though. You simply failed to see the subject break. As for the "Web Enhancement", well, I think THAT was the typo. I would be interested in hearing what the Sage or Monte or Andy have to say about it. Perhaps we should ask them directly before proceeding?

I don't value the Sages opinion and neither Andy nor Monte had anything to do with Deities & Demigods.

Actually, no, the Quasi-deity then works out to ECL +16.

Says you!

Yes, I think we should contact one of the designers or someone else with WotC and ask if it were a typo or not. If it were a typo, I think we would have heard by now.

Even if the official line differs from my opinion I would challenge their ruling (and, naturally, defeat them in any objective argument).

Regarding SDAs per Divine Rank, I think that perhaps you are being a bit harsh. There is no problem with giving an extra per Divine Status.

It annoyingly messes with the symmetry of my system though.

As for Divine Blast and Divine Shield, I would say a definite NO to Divine Blast, and probably no to Divine Shiled as well, or maybe . . .

Replace the SDA per Divine Status with SPECIFIC SDAs. This would be a combination of your previous two ideas. Perhaps "bonus SDAs" . . .

Demigod (DvR 1): Divine Shield
Lesser Deity (DvR 6): Avatar
Intermediate Deity (Dv 11): Annihilating Strike
Greater Deity (Dv 16): Divine Splendor

I dunno . . . Either keep the SDA per Divine Status, OR replace it with specific SDAs at specific Dinve Status, but NOT both.

I'm not sure either way at this juncture.

You have no idea how NOT complicated my system is.

I only remembered the laundry list of ECL modifiers for special abilities.

Once I've finished testing, I'll let you know. I think MOST of our ideas should come out similar, but I already know some things we differ on.

Okay.

 

[Blacksad]

Hello again mate!

Bonjour!

But the caster level check is not based of challenge rating!? Are you saying that should change?

yes, it doesn't change the caster level check from level 1 to 20, but it change it above level 20.

I'm not sure I agree with such a proposal.

I think its better to modify Spell Resistance than the fundamental of Caster Level Check.

I disagree, because I think it quickly break down (even at not so high level).

party level 40 CR 30, an easy challenge would be 8 CR under: CR 22.
CR 22 is a good challenge for level 24 character, so SR 35 and caster level check 1d20+22.

If one of the PC is a drow or a high level creature or has a magic item granting SR, this would allow the "orcs of the high level" to sometimes affect the character, as they are supposed to be still meaningful (they grant xp).

It works in the other side, with a creature 8 CR above (max allowed), the PC are still able to affect it 1d20+30 vs SR49.

While with your method CR38 is a good chalenge for level 56 PCs, which mean SR 67, which is completly impossible to attain by level 40 wizard. and the SR of low level creature completly loose its meaning.

Then for their CR they have very low SR.

yes, dragons uses a different formula, I think grazzt(?) the guy behind the creature catalog has figured the formula behind dragon SR.

I'm not happy messing too much with this. Also, as I mentioned Spell Resistance becomes less and less of an issue the higher you ascend anyway.

It's still an issue when you face, very easy to kill creatures, or very hard to kill creatures IMO.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: The Verdict

Hello again mate!

I see you tried to sneak this one in under my radar...

Well, I received an e-mail from James Wyatt himself today, and he made everything quite clear. It looks as though I (and the book) was wrong, and that UK had guessed correctly.

By 'guessed' I think you mean deduced.

Here is what I wrote, quote:

"My friends and I have been having a little debate about some of the stuff in Deities & Demigods, and I finally deicded to go straight to the source. As one of the creators of Deities & Demigods, perhaps you can enlighten us.

On page 26 under "Immunities", there is the following:

Energy Immunity: Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.

A friend of mine believes that the part about "Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid" is a typo, however, and that those immunities are instead granted at divine rank 0. He cites the fact that in the Web Enhancement, the sample Quasi-deity has the electricity, cold, and acid immunities at divine rank 0.

I, however, believe that the typo is actually in the Web Enhancement, and that the text in Deities & Demigods is, in fact, correct.

That is my question today. Does a deity get immunity to electricity, cold, and acid at divine rank 1 (as per Deities & Demigods) or divine rank 0 (as per the Web Enhancement)? Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time, and I await what you have to say on the matter. Thanks you again.

-Brandon Harwell"


Here is the official reply from James Wyatt, one of the creators of Deities & Demigods, and I quote:

"Hi Brandon--

There are a very few divine rank 0 deities in the actual book as well as in the web enhancement (mostly in the Asgardian pantheon--Skirnir and the Jotunheim giants), and they all agree with the web enhancement. I checked an earlier file of the manuscript and I see that it used to be quite clear in the text that all deities are immune to acid, cold, and electricity, even at divine rank 0. So your friend is correct, sorry to say.

I'll try to make sure this gets addressed in the errata.

Thanks for writing!

James"

Well James Wyatt is one of the people I respect the most in this industry; though the evidence was so clear cut on this point that there was only ever going to be one answer - or a big laying of the Immortal Smackdown from yours truly.

So there you have it.

Indeed.

If you combined that with the idea that all six ability scores are equal, which I still find questionable although it makes the calculations much easier, the Quasi-deity works out to be ECL +16 as follows:

ECL +1 for 100% increase over normal movement
ECL +6 for +60 Divine Bonus to ability scores
ECL +1/2 for DR 24/+4
ECL +1 for Fire Resistance 20
ECL +2 for SR 30
ECL +1 for Transmutation Immunity
ECL +1 for Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Ability Damage Immunity
ECL +1 for Mind-Affecting Effect Immunity
ECL +3 for Electricity, Cold, and Acid Immunity

You missed the potential +30 Inherant Bonus to ability scores.

Now Divine Rank 1 works out to be ECL +24 (if you decide to give SDAs per divine rank and NOT for divine status) or ECL +25 (if you decide to give SDAs as per the rules in Deities & Demigods), as follows:

ECL +1 or +2 for Salient Divine Abilities
ECL +1 for no automatic failure on "1"
ECL +1 for Disease, Poison, Stun, Sleep, Paralysis, Death, and Disintegrate Immunity
ECL +3 for Domain Powers and Spell-Like Abilities
ECL +1 for Portfolio and Create Magic Items
ECL +1 for Divine Aura

I don't rate either the Quasi-deity or Demigod templates the same way you do.

Anyway, I think that covers everything. Sheesh . . . To believe that even UK once considered Divine Rank 0 to be ECL +8 . . .

Just goes to show that idiot Upper_Krust doesn't know what the hell hes on about.