Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

I believe I have to agree here.

It is most apparent.

I have the vague feeling that +2 CR is a bit too high for ECL 1 - 5.

I think for the most part they are fairly accurate (certainly more so than official interpretations).

To be totally accurate you have to use fractions which is far too pedantic, and irrelevant given any element of subjectivity as herein.

Please, calm down.
You don't sound like yourself.

The comments you were refering to were a light-hearted pastiche of Anubis above Feat Prerequisites.

Apologies if the content or tone wasn't initially recognisable.

 

[Blacksad]

Nooooooooooo!

Bonjour mon ami!

Salut mon pôte!

Two changes too many though.

nah, compared to the change on CR it's barely noticeable

But the affects become less and less relevant.

Its like giving someone a million dollars. It means less if the character is already a millionaire and much less if they are already a billionaire.

let suppose that all you possess has a value of $100'000
won't you notice it if someone gave you $1 ?

It is broken. I have changed it.

It always was broken; I just thought the difference was negligable and that we could get away without touching it because I hadn't determined a simple enough mechanism to deal with it...now I have.

You don't find the new SR mechanic simple enough?

Here is a deal, if you find someone that is not you (or an alt ID), that agree that SR shouldn't be changed, I'll stop asking for a change, and will keep it as my own house rule.

I think you won't be able to convince anyone

A (WotC) CR2 monster = (My) ECL 2
(My) ECL 2 = CR 4

Effective Character Level IS actual power.

Challenge Rating is about relative power, NOT actual power.

So an ogre is equal in power to a level 2 fighter?

[snip]

Monte Cook already stated that the dragon challenge ratings were purposefully lowered to make them tougher.

That defeats the whole purpose of challenge ratings in the first place! Secondly its like saying all DMs are too stupid to be able to determine challenges for themselves.

If you want to retain the original foibles for sentimental reasons thats up to you.

Personally I would rather just leave them alone.

If the dragon has an underated SR, increasing its SR will put it even farther from PC ability, that's what bother me.

Plus the formula isn't exclusivly for the few monster that have problem in the MM (otherwise it wouldn't be worth anything), it's especially for monster from other soucres (OA, monster of Rokugan, MM2, etc...). I think that among those some were meant to have a 25% chance to resist spell vs the apropriate party, and I want to keep that. I do not consider this a foible

 

[S'mon]

Dragon CR

Just a note on dragon CR - I used my first dragon on Sunday, a young adult red (officially CR 12) with SR 19, 5th level Sorcerer. It was ambushed by a party of *13* PCs & NPCs levels 7-11, mostly fighters heavily buffed by their clerics and arcane casters (including Jamz's Sorc 10), backed up by two summoned avorrals. The party were doing almost no damage until the avorrals dispelled its mage armor & shield. The dragon quickly killed Tallarn's 7th level cleric, but took a lot of damage and had to retreat, escaping with 37hp out of ca 218 he started with.
Conclusion: young adult red dragons are indeed roughly CR 16.

 

[Gez]

Re: Yes it is.

Salut UK,

It will be a lot clearer when you see the full rules; explanations and examples.

I hope so!

Wait for the finished product before passing judgement.

I will.

The biggest confusion was made by WotC when they set their challenge ratings to the party average level; rather than individuals (then modify for number of party members).

I can see their reasons there... But if it can ease the work for a roughly standard party, it complexify it for an unbalanced one (like the famous problem of the "no healer" party).

If your system allows to fix that without too much asprin consumption, that would be great !

A (WotC) CR2 monster = (My) ECL 2
(My) ECL 2 = CR 4

Effective Character Level IS actual power.

Challenge Rating is about relative power, NOT actual power.

Every time you ascend in Challenge Rating by +2 you are DOUBLING in power!

+2 CR = x2 power
+4 CR = x4 power
+6 CR = x8 power
+8 CR = x16 power

Ah! Je crois que j'ai compris.

I think that you should use different terms than ECL and CR, this would clear the confusion. Maybe Power Ratings. Absolute Power Rating and Relative Power Rating. APR and RPR. Argh! No! No RPR. That would be just awful and vile.

Without the "rating" thing, then. AP and RP.

Monte Cook already stated that the dragon challenge ratings were purposefully lowered to make them tougher.

That defeats the whole purpose of challenge ratings in the first place! Secondly its like saying all DMs are too stupid to be able to determine challenges for themselves.

I wholly agree. They used a needlessly useless system of "critter", "terror", "fiend" and "dragon" in their encounter calculations, and assigned wrong CRs based on these category. Thus, a CR 7 critter is a weaker opponent than a CR 6 terror. And dragons have all their CRs underrated.

Two problems here. The first is that this system force some monsters into some category of opponents. A DM is discouraged from using a creature in another role. The second, and main problem is that they should have associated the "challenge type" to the challenge rating, then. They havn't. Thus, monsters that don't appear on the encounter table on the DMG have no precise category and we're screwed.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Hi Upper Krust


If you have time...

You don’t know me, but I’ve been looking into this thread occasionally and lurking on and off since way back when. Recently, I’ve lost track, so forgive me if the following analyses are out of date wrt your own system – you may have tweaked it, and my conception of it may be incomplete in any case.

I wonder if you’ve got hold of the BoVD yet? I thought that one of the complaints – that Graz’zt ‘got the shaft’ was probably a little unfair. Notwithstanding arguments against the power levels of all the arch-fiends, I thought that their relative levels of power were not that dissimilar to 1E: but the WotC CR system was looking pretty arbitrary. I’d downloaded the Asgard mag with your CR system, and wondered if it would yield results similar to my gut feeling when applied to the Demon Princes.

I did not apply the quasi-deity +8 to any of them – I’m not entirely sure what your criteria are for that and, if applied, what abilities would ‘carry over’ above and beyond the +8.

Also I realize that all special abilities are not the same – weighting them would be difficult.

That said, I wonder how you would react to this analysis using that system:


Graz’zt

ECL = 27 (36 Outsider HD) + 5 (DR15/+6, fast healing 5, item master, outsider traits, see invisibility, SR 38, summon tanar’ri, fear, spell-like abilities) = 32

‡ CR 26

Note: He’s also got a mean sword and his spell-like abilities are pretty huge – perhaps enough to count for +2 ECL / +1 CR?

WotC peg Graz’zt at CR24.



Demogorgon

ECL = 30 (39 Outsider HD) + 7 (Energy Drain, 2 x gaze attacks, rot, spell-like abilities, dual actions, fast healing 10, item master, mage armour, outsider traits, see invisibility, SR42, summon tanar’ri, tanar’ri traits) = 37

‡ CR 28

WotC peg Demogorgon at CR30



Orcus

ECL = 13 (13th Level Wizard) + 18 (24 Outsider HD above class levels) +5 (Poison, spell-like abilities, see invisibility, summon tanar’ri, summon undead, tanar’ri traits, DR 20/+7, SR41, outsider traits) +1 (Wand of Orcus) = 36

‡ CR 29

WotC place Orcus at CR 28.



Juiblex

ECL = 19 (26 Outsider HD) + 9 (Amorphous, blindsight 120, circle of darkness, DR 30/+5, ooze immunities, outsider traits, SR30, summon tanar’ri, summon oozes, tanar’ri traits, acid, circle of cold, constrict, create slime, drown, engulf, improved grab, spell-like abilities) = 28

‡ CR 24

WotC give Juiblex CR 20



Yeenoghu

ECL= 25 (33 Outsider HD) + 6 (DR15/+6, fast healing 5, outsider traits, scent, see invisibility, SR 32, summon ghouls, summon gnolls, summon tanar’ri, tanar’ri traits, spell-like abilities) = 31

‡ CR 25

or CR 22, according to WotC.


Feel free to dissect, correct and/or update. I’m interested by your rationale.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Mais qui!

Salut mon pôte!

Bonjour mon ami gallic!

nah, compared to the change on CR it's barely noticeable.

Yes but the CR improvements are a necessity.

let suppose that all you possess has a value of $100'000
won't you notice it if someone gave you $1 ?

You might notice it but would it noticeably affect your buying power; no.

You don't find the new SR mechanic simple enough?

Yes, its simple enough.

Its just not (as I see it) a necessity.

Here is a deal, if you find someone that is not you (or an alt ID), that agree that SR shouldn't be changed, I'll stop asking for a change, and will keep it as my own house rule.

I think you won't be able to convince anyone

If you find someone who has played an Immortal character for over ten years and agrees with you; I might consider taking up your offer.

So an ogre is equal in power to a level 2 fighter?

If we assume WotCs CRs are correct, then yes.

However, I work the Ogre out to be ECL 3.

If the dragon has an underated SR, increasing its SR will put it even farther from PC ability, that's what bother me.

I'm not planning on changing any dragon SRs though.

Plus the formula isn't exclusivly for the few monster that have problem in the MM (otherwise it wouldn't be worth anything), it's especially for monster from other soucres (OA, monster of Rokugan, MM2, etc...). I think that among those some were meant to have a 25% chance to resist spell vs the apropriate party, and I want to keep that. I do not consider this a foible

I have no problem with anyone wanting to impose your changes.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Mais qui!

If we assume WotCs CRs are correct, then yes.

However, I work the Ogre out to be ECL 3.

WoTC is very obviously incorrect, ogres are obviously CR 3 - indeed they had ogres as CR 3 in the PHB's 2000 Survival Guide. Try comparing a real CR 2 like a bugbear to an ogre! Several of the giant-types are at least 1 CR too low - ettins definitely, trolls probably, hill giants maybe (but CR 7 vs CR 8 means a lot less than CR 2 vs CR 3!)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Dragon CR

Hi Simon!

Just a note on dragon CR - I used my first dragon on Sunday, a young adult red (officially CR 12) with SR 19, 5th level Sorcerer. It was ambushed by a party of *13* PCs & NPCs levels 7-11, mostly fighters heavily buffed by their clerics and arcane casters (including Jamz's Sorc 10), backed up by two summoned avorrals. The party were doing almost no damage until the avorrals dispelled its mage armor & shield. The dragon quickly killed Tallarn's 7th level cleric, but took a lot of damage and had to retreat, escaping with 37hp out of ca 218 he started with.

Such an affront must not go unpunished. Let it be known Thrins gaze is far; his reach is wide and his vengeance terrible!

Was Tallarns death heroic? If so it may be worth a raise dead...what do you say Simon?

Conclusion: young adult red dragons are indeed roughly CR 16.

I seem to recall predicting something like ECL 17.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Yes it is.

Salut UK,

Bonjour mon ami!

*I'm actually typing that with an accent*

I hope so!

When in doubt...trust me!

I will.

I can see their reasons there... But if it can ease the work for a roughly standard party, it complexify it for an unbalanced one (like the famous problem of the "no healer" party).

If your system allows to fix that without too much asprin consumption, that would be great !

I think so!

Ah! Je crois que j'ai compris.

I told you it was easy!

I think that you should use different terms than ECL and CR, this would clear the confusion. Maybe Power Ratings. Absolute Power Rating and Relative Power Rating. APR and RPR. Argh! No! No RPR. That would be just awful and vile.

Without the "rating" thing, then. AP and RP.

I'll consider optional terms - though it should really be WotC that should change their terms!

At least when I use Effective Character Level and Challenge Rating 'it does exactly what it says on the tin!'

I wholly agree. They used a needlessly useless system of "critter", "terror", "fiend" and "dragon" in their encounter calculations, and assigned wrong CRs based on these category. Thus, a CR 7 critter is a weaker opponent than a CR 6 terror. And dragons have all their CRs underrated.

Two problems here. The first is that this system force some monsters into some category of opponents. A DM is discouraged from using a creature in another role. The second, and main problem is that they should have associated the "challenge type" to the challenge rating, then. They havn't. Thus, monsters that don't appear on the encounter table on the DMG have no precise category and we're screwed.

Its a lot simpler to just rate them all under the same mechanics...so thats what I have done.

 

[Blacksad]

Hi Gez & U_K!

I think that you should use different terms than ECL and CR, this would clear the confusion. Maybe Power Ratings. Absolute Power Rating and Relative Power Rating. APR and RPR. Argh! No! No RPR. That would be just awful and vile.

LOL

As long as the whole system isn't called Force Notion

Originally posted by Upper_Krust
If you find someone who has played an Immortal character for over ten years and agrees with you; I might consider taking up your offer.

If you find only one (including you) that has played 3rd edition for over ten years, I might agree with you

The way AD&D worked at high-level seems a bit different than how it works now in 3rd edition, if only because it was less defined.

The current system is accessible to much more players, you can't know every way that the IH could be used (you're only omnipotent, not necessarily omniscient ), consider that it has to be clarified by the sage if iajitsu focus and sneak attack could stack or not.

I do not remember the answer, but it affect the ninja of the crane family, mentioned in way of the ninja, while in OA such concept (ninja in one of the 8 great clans) was out of place.

By letting a know minor bug in the book, you're bound to have multiple way for players to find it (for exemple, because some DM might want a game focused on rogue and fighter, doing so by removing additional roll in spellcasting and removing effect that impede spellcasting, keeping only saves & SR).

oh, and $2 represent a full meal for me