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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannager" data-source="post: 5811285" data-attributes="member: 73683">Okay, so let's break this down.So, as far as rights go, they absolutely do have the right to tell you that something is more fun than something else. Well within their legal right. So obviously that's not the issue.When you say, "They have no right," what you actually mean is, "I don't like being told that something is the case when I do not personally agree that it is the case." I think it'll help understanding if we stick to the concrete, rather than the radicalized.So now that we've got that hammered out, let's talk about a game designer's job. What do you think a game designer's job is, TheAuldGrump? Is it to make games? I daresay it is. I mean, it'd be tough to disagree with that one, right?So game designers are supposed to make games. Well, how do they do that? Obviously they must have a method. They don't put monkeys in front of typewriters and hope to eventually get a working rules set. Clearly they have to start somewhere.So game designers make games by starting with an idea. In the case of making a new edition of D&D, they probably start with an old edition of D&D and see where it can be improved. So how do you improve a game? Is it possible to have a game that is more fun than another game? I would argue that it is, in fact, quite possible. In fact, I would argue that, as a society, we accept that certain things are more fun than other certain things. Things might, on an individual level, be tilted one way or the other - one person might find a game very fun that another person thinks is no fun at all - but on the whole we accept that fun can be measured on a sliding scale.We call "fun" by a lot of different names. Playability. Wow factor. Draw. Compelling gameplay. All of these things are different terms for "fun" (or something close to it). And, as a game designer, you want to create a game that your target audience will describe with these terms. So you have to create a game that is fun.But whose fun?You can't make a game that is everyone's fun. That can't happen. Some people want weird things, or things that are fundamentally and diametrically opposed to things other people want. So you have to pick. You have to decide what is and what is not the sort of fun you're looking for. And you have to get that from somewhere. Game designers often (and legitimately) start with what they think is fun. They often gather feedback from other people whose opinions they trust.But in the end, the result is the same: when you play any game (ANY GAME) you are being told by the game designers that this is what fun is. They will not set out to create a game that is not fun enough. And, if they're producing an iteration of an existing game, they will no doubt try to make it more fun than whatever came before.So we're forced to accept the fact that game designers, on a daily basis, make decisions on what is and is not fun. They throw things out. They add new things. And at every junction they ask themselves if the end result will be fun.I'm going to switch tracks for just a moment, but we'll come back.WotC is "waving the white flag," you say. I'm not going to bother disagreeing with you here, because whether or not that's what's going on is unimportant. But you say that they're waving the white flag because they have no right to tell anyone what is or isn't fun.Except we now know that game designers have to do that. That's what making a game is. And, if you actually believe in your game, you're going to want to tell people that your game is fun - heck, you may even want to tell people that your game is more fun than what came before!WotC is asking for forgiveness because they have to. They did something honest. They told the gaming community that they thought their game was fun. That it was more fun than what came before. And you know what the gaming community did?They said, as loudly as they could, "You have no right to tell us that your game is more fun than your old game!"This is, of course, puzzling to a game designer. Game design is about making things that are fun. And making things that are more fun. But the second one of them actually admitted that game design was about making things that are fun, the gaming community wanted to lynch them.Do you understand how this makes things look a little insane?What it ends up boiling down to is that game designers told people what they do for a living, and people went bananas.WotC isn't waving a white flag out of guilt. They're not guilty of anything. They haven't injured you, committed any crimes, or done anything morally heinous. They're waving it because their customers - or, at least, the people they want as their customers - demanded it. And they demanded it because they don't like being verbally told that something is more fun than something else. They're fine with the implicit statement of an iterative release - that the new thing is better than the old thing. That's what iterations are all about. But when someone comes out and says it? The world ends, the hordes rush the gates, polished pitchforks in hand, and demand that the game designers wave their white flags and admit guilt.That's what you're pushing, here. That's your stance. WotC is guilty because you disagreed with them about what is and isn't fun enough.And the worst part?You wouldn't be complaining if their definitions of "fun enough" and "not fun enough" were the same as yours.So WotC is going to publish 5e, and you've proposed a deal. Part of your demands. If this is starting to sound like a hostage scenario, good. That was intentional.They apologize, and you give their product a glance. They apologize - for doing their job and making judgment calls on what is and isn't fun enough. They apologize for doing their job, and you might find it in your heart to give them another chance.</blockquote>

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