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<blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 5811437" data-attributes="member: 32536">There is a world of difference between the markets for cars and game systems. I don't think this analogy is exactly applicable. The difference in expected customer familiarity with the product is enough on its own to make it inapplicable. I also don't agree with your characterization of WotC's marketing for 4E.I'll repeat it once again. To my recollection WotC never said 3E was unfun, or that certain playstyles were unfun. They did, however, talk heavily about how they intended to improve various areas of the game in order to make it easier to actually have fun. Unless you think there are people out there who actually think hours of grunt work spent number crunching to pull together basic game encounters is an impeccable source of fun...Insulting 4e by saying it &quot;feels like a video game&quot; is not and never will be a valid complaint about it, for all kinds of reasons. I hate that idea with a burning passion, and the last time I got into that argument I probably came within an inch of getting banned, and ultimately deleted my ENWorld bookmark and stopped visiting this site out of raw disgust until the 5E announcement. I have no sympathy for people who feel that way in the slightest.Ugh, that trauma aside...Nothing WotC has ever said has come close to the level of inanity expressed by &quot;it feels videogamey!&quot; or &quot;it doesn't feel like D&amp;D!&quot; If nothing else, WotC has always expressed the flaws of 3E in a rational manner. Those two statements are wholly irrational.It is hard to keep customers who are so in love with the idea that there game is impeccable that even the idea that it can be improved on will insult them. And that is what I honestly think of some of the complaints about the 4E marketing. It is what I thought of the completely unreasonable interpretations of 4E's marketing back then, and it is how I feel now.There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize 4E or to prefer 3E and Pathfinder over it. Feeling insulted by WotC's marketing and vague, irrational stuff like &quot;feel&quot; are not among them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="TwinBahamut, post: 5811437, member: 32536"] There is a world of difference between the markets for cars and game systems. I don't think this analogy is exactly applicable. The difference in expected customer familiarity with the product is enough on its own to make it inapplicable. I also don't agree with your characterization of WotC's marketing for 4E. I'll repeat it once again. To my recollection WotC never said 3E was unfun, or that certain playstyles were unfun. They did, however, talk heavily about how they intended to improve various areas of the game in order to make it easier to actually have fun. Unless you think there are people out there who actually think hours of grunt work spent number crunching to pull together basic game encounters is an impeccable source of fun... Insulting 4e by saying it "feels like a video game" is not and never will be a valid complaint about it, for all kinds of reasons. I hate that idea with a burning passion, and the last time I got into that argument I probably came within an inch of getting banned, and ultimately deleted my ENWorld bookmark and stopped visiting this site out of raw disgust until the 5E announcement. I have no sympathy for people who feel that way in the slightest. Ugh, that trauma aside... Nothing WotC has ever said has come close to the level of inanity expressed by "it feels videogamey!" or "it doesn't feel like D&D!" If nothing else, WotC has always expressed the flaws of 3E in a rational manner. Those two statements are wholly irrational. It is hard to keep customers who are so in love with the idea that there game is impeccable that even the idea that it can be improved on will insult them. And that is what I honestly think of some of the complaints about the 4E marketing. It is what I thought of the completely unreasonable interpretations of 4E's marketing back then, and it is how I feel now. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize 4E or to prefer 3E and Pathfinder over it. Feeling insulted by WotC's marketing and vague, irrational stuff like "feel" are not among them. [/QUOTE]

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