Using 2 stats to determine spellcasting: What do you think?

[AFGNCAAP]

Hello,

I was wondering what the general sentiment is on some classes (like the Favored Soul) which use 2 stats to determine spellcasting ability (usually one stat for maximum spell level known, the other stat for spell DCs & whatnot). Is it a good way to moderate power level & potency? Does it handicap the class in any way (requiring the player to devote time to develop 2 stats instead of just one)? Does it promote munchkinism to any degree (though not as severe as the 3.0 psion, it does sorta use the MAD mentality)?

If you like this mechanic, why? If you don't, why not?

 

[Thanee]

I think you should have one stat to set the DC and one to gain bonus spells and probably decide the maximum spell level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[PJ-Mason]

I voted maybe. At first glance it sounds okay, since combatants use str and dex for combat, why shouldn't spellcasters need both int and wis (or chr depending on the spellcaster). I'd have to think about it though to land on one side of the fence.

 

[Tessarael]

It really depends how you want abilities to work.

Consider a melee guy, he has 3 primary abilities: STR, DEX, CON. STR is the best of these (offense). DEX can be almost as important as STR, if you have Weapon Finesse. You can usually do it such that either you're the DEX & CON (light armor, light weapons or missile weapons) guy or the STR & CON (heavy armor) guy.

Consider a non-melee spellcaster. Your most important ability is your spellcasting ability. CON is still fairly important, for when you get hit by arrows or spell damage. The other stats are less important.

So I think a spellcaster has less multiple ability dependency than a melee guy. For that reason, I have less issues with making spellcasting require two abilities, such as:
- one for save DC and max. spell level known
- one for bonus spells

Just my thoughts ...

 

[heimdall]

Well, with melee folks, they don't tend to cap out on a class feature if their primary ability is too low. That's one of the big problems with spellcasters. I watched one of my players with a 3.0 psion struggle with this problem. He was of high enough level to pick a particular power, but he couldn't use it because the particular attribute required wasn't high enough.

 

[LostSoul]

Well, with melee folks, they don't tend to cap out on a class feature if their primary ability is too low.

A wizard with 13 Int won't cap out until 11th level. (+1 Int at 4th, and again at 8th.) By that time I'm sure he can afford a +2 Int boosting item.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I think it's a tad silly. With the Favored Soul, my response is to shaft Wis and buff up Cha; after all, if I'm buffing myself and healing my friends, why do I care about save DCs?

Heck, even with blasting spells...the monster's going to make its save anyway, more than likely, so just assume you do half damage and plan accordingly.

Brad

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Thanks for the replies! Keep `em coming!

As for me, I'm still on the fence with this mechanic.

Pros:

• It's a nifty way to allow a character concept that works this way--very potent low-level magics, or OTOH, able to use advanced/high-level magics, but not as potent as other casters of the same level.
• It's a nice idea for any sort of supporting spellcasting class (i.e., for someone other than the primary spellcasters in the group).
• It's a method to make interesting NPCs.

Cons:

• It's two stats to try & develop if you want to be somewhat comparable to any of the standard core spellcasters.
• It's a bad choice for any primary spellcasters for a group--spellcasters in these roles need to be able to access high-level magics & be sure they can pack a wallop.
• IMHO, it just adds yet another stat that a player would want a high score in. Not as bad as 3.0 PsiHB MAD, but close.

If anything, I wouldn't have a problem with such characters filling supportive roles in a party, or using these for memorable NPCs. However, I do feel that these sort of "niche" characters are a bit too focused, and don't work well in the primary/front-line roles.

 

[Laman Stahros]

One of my players is playing a Bard using the Bardic Sage variant from Unearthed Arcana (spells known on Int, DCs on Cha). It seems to be working pretty well. Still don't know if I like it too much (he started with a high Cha{16} and a medium Int{12}, he just made 8th). Wish the poll had an option that I could pick.

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

I didn't vote as I didn't see a good option for me. I think that as D&D stands, a caster needing two stats is a big disadvantage. I do like the idea though, and "if I ran the world" (i.e. I was writing all my own casting classes from the ground up for a game) they would probably all have to cast off 2 stats (probably Wis & Cha).

So, as D&D is right now, it is a balancing tool to reduce the spellcasting potential of a class with a lot of nice non-casting abilities (Favored Soul, that silly Shaman in CD) and if used in that regard, it's Ok I suppose. A designer has to realize it is a class limitation and somthing to be used as a balancing tool, I think it's Ok. Any time I see a class with it I scrutinize it even more for balance.