Using 4E Monsters in 3E or Pathfinder

[zen_hydra]

I don't own the D&D 4E books, but I've heard that the monster stats are easier to use as a GM than the 3rd edition versions.

Is this true, and if so, how hard would it be to use creatures from the 4E Monster Manuel(s) in a 3E or Pathfinder based game?

My group isn't interested in switching to D&D 4E, but as the GM I would love something that makes juggling monster stats a little bit easier.

If you don't feel that the 4E monster stat block is easily adaptable to 3E (or Pathfinder), what other products are available to make a GM's job a little easier when it comes to running the PC's adversaries in combat?

 

[Dausuul]

I don't own the D&D 4E books, but I've heard that the monster stats are easier to use as a GM than the 3rd edition versions.

Is this true, and if so, how hard would it be to use creatures from the 4E Monster Manuel(s) in a 3E or Pathfinder based game?

Well, you couldn't use them straight out of the box; you would have to do at least a little conversion just to resolve the shift from saving throws to static defenses. (The monster's Fort/Ref/Will saves would be equal to the static defense minus 11, and its attacks that target Fort/Ref/Will would change to requiring the target to make a Fort/Ref/Will save with DC equal to the monster's attack bonus plus 11.)

Then you have all the 4E conditions which don't have direct equivalents in 3E and vice versa; saving throw-based durations, which would confuse your players; et cetera. And 4E's model of monster balance probably wouldn't mesh well with 3E's model of player balance.

I think you'd be better off to use the spirit of 4E monster design, adapted to 3E. The spirit of 4E monster design is, don't sweat the small stuff; instead of going through an elaborate rigmarole of calculating the monster's stats based on Hit Dice, ability scores, size, monster type, and a partridge in a pear tree... just assign appropriate numbers and go with it. Likewise, avoid overloading monsters with abilities that mimic spells or otherwise require you to look up rules elsewhere. The goal is to put everything into a single statblock.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, I actually used this as an example of how far the definitions of "compatibility" between games can be defined in another thread.

D&D 4 monster stats have two major components:
1) The statistics all follow a "benchmark". You put in your role and your level, and you get suggested values for attack, damage, hit points and ability scores.

2) D&D 4 monsters have a far smaller amount of special abilities as most 3E monsters. These special abilities all fit into the stat block, so you do never have to reference other rulebooks to figure out what a power does. (Well, once you learned the core concepts of the game - how do attacks and defenses work, what's a save, what does slowed or dazed mean.)


Regarding 1) The problem is the benchmark is based on 4E rules and expectations on how PCs improve with levels. It's pretty much meaningless compared to 3E values. If you want to create your own, two products come to mind that might offer some advice:
- Mastering Iron Heroes. More specifically, villain classes. You basically set the desired CR, and you pick a few abilities from a menu.
- Trailblazer. Trailblazer discusses the math and advancement in 3.x and comes up with a benchmark equivalent on its own.

2) You can apply this in practice with existing NPCs and monsters. Pick a small number of attack options the NPC or monster will have, and use only those. Even if it's a Level 15 Wizard, you have to constrain yourself to, say, 3 spells that he'll use. Ignore anything else. The work you might have invested in 1) might tell you whether his stats (like AC or Saving Throws) need a small adjustment that you can pretend to be based on his defensive spells or magical equipment.

The biggest issue might be that after a combat with the Wizard, your party might want to know what kind of magic items the NPC was wearing and which spells to find in his spellbooks.

 

[Beginning of the End]

If you don't feel that the 4E monster stat block is easily adaptable to 3E (or Pathfinder), what other products are available to make a GM's job a little easier when it comes to running the PC's adversaries in combat?

4th Edition stat blocks are easier to use because:

(1) Non-combat abilities have been eliminated.

(2) Monsters are generally designed to be one- or two-trick ponies, so there are fewer decisions to be made while running them.

(3) If a monster has a special ability, all of the rules for that special ability are found in their stat block.

I would argue that #1 and #2 make the monsters unnecessarily bland. I would also argue that 4th Edition's design ethos unnecessarily eliminates the advantages of system familiarity in the use of spell-like abilities (once you know how magic missile or fireball works, you know how they work for every single monster who uses those abilities).

Ergo, I would argue that if you're looking to make 3rd Edition stat blocks easier to use you should:

(1) Use a stat block which separates the combat abilities/feats from the non-combat abilities/feats. I recommend these.

(2) Include all the rules for a creature's abilities in the stat block. When prepping for yourself, be aware of your own system mastery: If you know what a fireball does, don't bother summing it up. If you don't, you only need to include the briefest summary and a reference for more info if it seems useful ("4d6 fire, 20-ft. radius"; PHB pg. 231)

For example, way back in 2000 I used to include a summary of what the Power Attack feat did in the appropriate NPC stat blocks ("-1 attack, +1 damage"). I don't do that any more because I know what the Power Attack feat does.

(3) If a creature has more tactical options than you feel comfortable juggling, grab a highlighter and highlight 3-6 abilities that you want to emphasize in this particular encounter (or however many you feel comfortable with). You aren't taking the other abilities off the table, but you are focusing your attention.

You can also highlight stuff that you're always forgetting. For example, I'm really terrible at remembering that my monsters have DR. A quick highlight solves that problem.