Using Detect Evil/Good

[Felix]

Throw your paladin for a loop.

Remember how Good and Evil characters often have the same goals in mind: kill other Evil beings. Good characters want to do this because it will remove Evil from the world. Evil characters want to do this because it removes competition.

So let the Paladin know that an NPC is Evil. Also let the paladin know that the only thing keeping the EVILEVILEVIL NPC from taking over is this Evil NPC. So you could argue that the Evil NPC is doing good by keeping EVILEVILEVIL NPC at bay, and also that the Good paladin would be subjecting the town to EVILEVILEVIL if he removed the Evil NPC. That'll make his head spin and make him less likely to go around using Detect Evil because, in the end, it won't help him very much.

 

[Altalazar]

Simple Solution: Trap the entire party in Ravenloft. Then it won't work anymore...

 

[shilsen]

I've never had a problem with this, and I just use the rules as written. After all:

(1) The bartender at the local tavern (NE Com2, who beats his wife, steals from patrons, and kicks puppies) detects exactly as evil as the bodyguard of the BBEG (CE Ftr9, who enjoys killing, raping, and mutilating whoever he can). The LN priest of Vecna (Clr 2, with Knowledge and Magic domains) who works in the local library and is only interested in lost lore detects as more evil than both bartender and bodyguard, and more so than the LE priestess of Wee Jas (LE Clr8, who dabbles in necromancy and has no qualms about killing someone to obtain a new body for experimentation). Big surprise for any paladin who places too much faith in his detect evil ability.

(2) Detect Evil is only castable (among PC classes) by a cleric and a paladin. So the vast minority of people in society cannot understand it or experience it. What are the odds that alignment has any effect in a legal system? Close to none.

Sure D&D is black and white. But some of that black is darker than others, some of the white tends to run when left in the rain, and most of it depends on a healthy dose of interpretation.

Repeat after me now: I will not be scared of alignment, and I will not cry when my paladin tries to detect evil.

Go on, I'm waiting...

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Thanks, a lot of good suggestions here.

Ravenloft is the realm of our group's other DM (who is paladin in my game), so I can't use that one...

And I've already planned for a couple of interesting "moral dilemmas" for the paladin, so don't want to abuse it. I just want to keep the ability from becoming an easy crutch.

 

[d4]

Another point to bear in mind is the legality of the spell. If you kill someone, then what sort of defense is 'my holy instincts told me they were evil, m'lord'?

it really depends on the status of the paladin's church. the paladin could say, "I am a paladin of the god of truth, honor, and law [or whatever], and have sworn an oath to never tell a lie and to uphold the law and honor in all things. the holy power of my god has shown me that this person is evil. if you doubt me, you doubt my god as well." if the religion of the paladin's god has any sort of clout in the society, then i'd think something like that would have quite a lot of legal pull.

Detect Evil is only castable (among PC classes) by a cleric and a paladin. So the vast majority of people in society cannot understand it or experience it. What are the odds that alignment has any effect in a legal system? Close to none.

i'd think that the vast majority of people in a society would be aware of the holy powers of the servitors of the gods, and would respect those who receive power from gods known to be good and just. i'd think the word of a lawful good cleric or paladin would have quite a large effect on the legal system.

 

[Tonguez]

According to the SRD only the following detect as evil using the Detect Evil spell

Creature/Object
Evil creature*
Undead
Evil outsider
Cleric of an evil deity
Evil magic item or spell
*Except for undead and outsiders, which have their own entries on the table.

So the Neutral cleric of an evil deity will detect as evil
'Good' Undead will detect as evil
Evil Outsiders and Evil Spells have EVIL descriptors

so I'd say that a fair interpretation of the rules is that detect evil does NOT detect alignment at all - it detects EVIL (as per the descriptor) and a Evil creature must be one with an EVIL descriptor.

ergo Barry the Thug isn't detectable and doesn't show up unless he is the Chosen of the Dark Lord

 

[WayneLigon]

According to the SRD only the following detect as evil using the Detect Evil spell ... ergo Barry the Thug isn't detectable and doesn't show up unless he is the Chosen of the Dark Lord

If Barry is LE/NE/CE, he counts as an Evil creature, though. Sure he shows up.

 

[jasper]

Jasper Paladin thoughts
DMs must come up with a code of conduct for paladins. And allow the player to make adjustments. This needs to be done before the character is created.

The Detect Evil ability of paladins is not a problem. Detect Evil targets creatures, objects and spells. Humanoid are classified as creatures. A character with an evil alignment at tenth or lower level would have a faint aura of power. Up to twenty-fifth level a moderate aura. A priest of evil god who class level is one has a faint, second to fourth a moderate, strong at fifth to tenth, and overwhelming after that. Detect Evil is divination with V, S, Df, how ever it is spell like ability which has no components. Can the detect evil spell like ability be detected? Depends on the Dm handles spell like abilities. And if there are any spells up on the patrons.


So Paladin casts a spell in crowded bar and in eighteen seconds knows at table four there is one overwhelming aura, and three faint traces. He charges! After slaying the evil he is beheaded for murder. Next paladin. A paladin is just another adventurer who can be cast into jail for violating the local laws.

added the rest here
Are paladins the law, Judge Dread of the land? Ask your Dm. IMC it varies with kingdom whether they are the law enforcement office. Now I once had a Paladin chase the party half way across the continent. Once she caught up with party and learned the facts of jail break, she charged them with the jail break. Fined them and made them pay the wergild for the slain guards. Then cut them loose since the party was fighting greater evil than the violation of kingdom laws.

Would Bucky the Wonder Paladin back stab Orcus in the back, when Orcus is shopping at Wal-Mart? Depends on the level and code of conduct of paladin. At first level just as he was going for his sword his cell phone would beep. Bucky, “Hello, Bucky speaking.” Voice, “do not do it. You are not good enough yet.” Bucky, “but he is EVIL!” Voice, “the boss does not employ stupid paladins. Help is on the way so just sit still and don’t get yourself nuked!” Bucky, “What’s nuke?” Voice, “Never mind that!” click. Now if Bucky was twentieth level, and Bucky was shopping for some new Underroos and spied Orcus in the shoe dept and he did nothing. His cell phone would beep. “Bucky here. How may I help you?” Voice, “Clean up on aisle five.” Bucky, “Can’t you see I am shopping in peace here?” Voice, “Clean up on aisle five, now.” Bucky, “Hey I am on vacation! Can’t get someone else?” Voice, “Clean up on aisle five, right now! Or else!” Bucky, “Ok I’m going can’t take a little joke.” Click.


I allow paladins to drink, smoke, flirt etc depending on their CoC. Hey they can have gas if they want to. The CoC for each god is not necessary the same to give each religion and each paladin some style. Also the player decides on how evil aura appears to the paladin. One player uses the taste of crisp bacon for faint, to burnt bacon, to spit it out. Another uses smell and still another uses color yellow, orange, then red.

A dm must never set up a no win dilemma for paladin. So no coming to intersection and having to choose between saving Grandpa Jones from the wolf or running into the burning hut to save Baby Huey.

A dm should give a clear warning that a propose action will result in lost of paladinhood. Either Bucky the Wonder paladin gets a cold shiver as he starts to plan the bank robbery. Or Jasper I will pull the paladin status of Bucky if you keep it up. The warning should be clear enough for player to take five and decide to continue with the action or not.

A player needs to clearly understand how the dm views the CoC. Accept the fact that some players do not get along the dm’s views and play another class.

Now to srd
A Willing commit an evil act.
Respect legitimate authority. I sorry of Great Evil Mucky Muck but I must respectfully ask you step down from the throne before I have to lop off you head to pay for the thousands of people your secret police assassinated on your orders. No problems with this one.
Help the needy in good ways.
Punish those who harm others, or threaten harm.

Act with honor (No lying, no cheating, no poison use, insert dm views here). Ok here is where you need your dm’s input. Do I tell the border guards the truth, I here to toss Orcus off his throne or just say personal business. Is a bluff a lie?
Can I cheat a con man and win back the orphanage’s Christmas goose fund?
Can I use sleep poison to bring in Bad Bart for trial, or do I just hack him up to he is down for the count?


However paladins are not cops.
Ex. Lawyer, Excuse me Bucky the Wonder Paladin, did you say halt I’m a Paladin before you attacked Orcus in the town square.
Bucky, No he was EVIL!
Dm, Boom There it is! No more paladin powers for you since you violated the law.
If this were to happen in a game the dm does not understand paladins.

Also a paladin is not smite on sight sword slinger.
Ex. Bucky the Wonder Paladin while giving a class on justice, decides to detect evil on the Springfield Elementary fourth grade class. Suddenly he rushes over and starts choking Bart Simpson. With the aid of Ned Flanders, Principal Skinner was able to subdue Bucky. Bucky is now doing five to ten in the local pen. Hey that is it. Sideshow Bob is a paladin.

A paladin liberally using his Detect Evil every five rounds isn’t smart either and he is being tacky. Bucky the Wonder paladin arrives on noon stage coach to Tatoonie. He wanders into Jabba’s Bar and Grill (slogan we have good deals). Boom detects evil. He draws his sword. (sfx of mass blaster fire). A small droid rolls out of wall and vacuums up the ashes. The bartender adds another hash mark to paladins’ wasted wall.

What Bucky should do is something like this. Bucky the Wonder paladin and party are stop by Mr. Haney the road side vendor. While Mr. Haney goes into his pitch, Bucky detects evil and receives a faint aura. Bucky, “It sounds like a good deal on the +3 vorpal Ginzu set but I do not trust Mr. Haney. Mr. Haney are you sure this is a good deal?” etc. Bucky then notes Mr. Haney as a person to keep an eye on in the future.

also Lawful does not mean following the all the laws in all the kingdoms he visits.
from the srd
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Note respect not follow every laws.
Ex. Bucky the wonder Paladin enters Piratecats Province. being a good paladin he whips out his magic book Laws and cops of all ages and places and starts reading up on the local laws. On his watch he finishes his reading.
Bucky. I throw shackles on cleric, break the spellcasters fingers, dump out all the bags of holding including the one to my temple at the thief's feet. Then cut my throat and throw myself off the cliff why chanting I not worthy.
Players "what the???"
Bucky's the Players Section 666 subsection 6 part 6 paragraph 6 of Laws of pirate cat All Paladins are fined all their goods and are to be killed on sight. Section 333, subsection 6 part 6 paragraph 6 All undeclared arcana spellcaster will have their fingers broken and fine all their goods to the nearest thief.
Section 3 subsection 6 part 6 paragraph 6 All clerics following a good god must be shackle until the proper authorites authorized their visit.
Section 1 Subsection 1 part 1 paragraph 1. All thieves rules and dogs drool. Thieves are always the proper authority. You will respect their authority.

from the srd
Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.
Batman in the 70's and early 80 was lawful good. He respect authority but didnpt worry about breaking laws which got in the way of justice etc.

 

[Tonguez]

If Barry is LE/NE/CE, he counts as an Evil creature, though. Sure he shows up.

Why? Lets assume Barry is human - humans are NOT Evil creatures ergo Barry the human is NOT an Evil creature

the Spell desription says it detects 'Evil creatures' not individual alignments of humanoids (I'd expect another entry on the table for Evil aligned Humanoids for that- but it doesn't exist)

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I was wondering how other people use the Detect Evil/Good spells or abilities in their campaigns.

I'm finding that it creates complications to play it exactly as written in the rules. I have a Paladin in my party and he likes to use the ability to determine if the people the party may be dealing with are evil or not. If they have an "evil" alignment, either the party will not deal with them, or they may even prepare to attack (depends upon the circumstances). I'm feeling like things should not be quite so black and white, that there are some beings like demons that are truly "evil", but most creatures have a blend of good and evil, regardless of their official alignment, and there is the issue of what is evil to one person, may not be evil to another.

I'm trying to figure out how to play this. I have been considering using a scale where most people tend to show up as a blend of good and evil and that a persons own perception of themselves can shift the blend...

What do you think? Any suggestions?

If possible, you should check out the paladin prestige class in the Warcraft RPG. Instead of detect evil, they get detect undead and detect demons/evil outsiders.