D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Well, if it's going to be done this way, all ability scores need to be their own calculation.

And if a creature's racial ability modifiers total to more than +0, then yes, they should be counted.

Indeed.

The best way to calculate the ability score CR factor is to add them all up, subtract 63, and divide the result by 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong there, UK.

I don't do it like that, but whatever people find easiest.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mate!

Yet another ECL question.

Okay, Krust is saying that the Golden rule probably shouldn't be used on CR's when used as ECL.

But the silver rule rule should be used still. So shouldn't it say somewhere that the silver rule is applied to the base CR when determining ECL?

Later,

Edit: And shouldn't it say that the golden rule shouldn't be applied?

I'll make sure the new versions clarify the position.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey seasong mate!

I've started a thread for playing with Upper Krust's system. It is NOT a third thread to discuss whether or not the system needs fixing in some teeny tiny way. It's a sandbox to build castles in.

I've started things off with a bit of fun for the players in my upcoming D&D campaign (which will likely be starting next year), the Dark Contract template. As I have time, I will add other stuff as well (one thing I want to add is a domain realm of the Sun, and the winged humanoids that dwell there).

I had a brief read through, you already have a lot of interesting stuff in there. I'll read over it more carefully tomorrow when I have some time.

Nice to see the fruits of my labour paying off.

 

[seasong]

Hey seasong mate!

Hey Upper Krust!

I had a brief read through, you already have a lot of interesting stuff in there. I'll read over it more carefully tomorrow when I have some time.

Cool . Although I don't want you to feel obligated - I'm just playing with stuff, and thought the folks here might want to play a bit, too.

Nice to see the fruits of my labour paying off.

Hurry up and publish! I gots money for ya.

That, and I don't want to use D&Dg + MotP to build the background of my setting.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Woohoo, took me an hour to get here (at least)

Me too.

Hey U_K

Howdy!

More questions I was thinking about.

How much would you deem suitable for additional attacks (not the iterative attacks)? Right now I've got it at 0.3, but I have the eerie feeling that that might be a bit low *looks around shoulder* o.o

+0.5

I also had an idea on doing the HD and skill points..
I'm going to limit both to 1 per level (mostly because of skills), since if they'd be able to pick 2+Int more than once per level, no one would be taking 8+Int, since you'd get your Int bonus 4 times with 2+Int compared to the one time you get with 8+Int (it'll be about the same cost iirc). I'm still putting in the Skill ranks thing because if there wouldn't be any bonus on it from Int, it would decrease the effectiveness of the Int score. They can gain bonus skill points besides this though, just like I'm allowing for bonus HP besides the HD.

Okay.

I'm gonna get going to my friends now, so I'll try to get back to this some other time.

Okay, interested to hear what they think of your idea.

 

[Kavon]

Hi mate!

Hey U_K

I always try to use the force.

Reasonable advice

Isn't there a feat somewhere that gives you spell-like abilities?

Hmm... I seem to remember something being in one of the Forgotten Realms books... I'll have to check it out later (I'm at my friend's place right now).

Edit: Hmm... I had another thought today. About spellcasting.. I was thinking about making it that a player can select individual spells that he'd be able to cast (spells known, spells readied, spell slots, spell level. All of these would need to be ranked, with those first three split into the 9 spell levels somehow). I told one of my players about it, and he was enthusiastic about it.
This idea was mainly derived from some manga I'm reading at the moment (Naruto), where there are these ninja that use techniques/spells using their chakra (spiritual energy). This works with the ninja knowing a certain ability.. and I thought it would be a nice idea to have the character learn them individually in a similar way as that.
The only ploblem I see with that is characters being able to learn higher level spells (in theory). I know I could limit it, but, like with what I said some days ago, I'm not sure if it would really matter (they'd trade it off in exchange for other abilities). If I don't want a player to learn a certain ability yet, they just won't be able to find anyone to teach them..I guess. What do you think about this?
/edit

Okay.

Give me a list of the stuff you are unsure about.

Ok, I'll go through it on sunday (if I get the chance) and check out the abilities one at a time.

Okay, thats complicated and I can't remember exactly off hand, you'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Alright, I'm patient Really appreciate it

Okay.

(still didn't get a chance to through it. I'll try sunday)

If you are confident about it then I say go for it. Should be a useful exercise in player education anyway.

Once I get everything done, it should work well enough.

All seems straightforward to me.

Me too.

Hmm.. I hope everything is going okay with the server o.o

+0.5

Ah, thanks! *notes down*

Okay, interested to hear what they think of your idea.

Well, I explained it to one of them (the other is out kickboxing right now), and he seems to think well of it
There was some hassle with the Wealth for XP thing, just like I expected (mainly because I feel the same), but I think I was able to explain why it was necesarry.

Edit: *is back home again* Ok, the other one shares ciaran00's opinion on XP (as I expected). But, I think(/hope) I got the point across well enough. Same hassle with the Wealth for XP thing (only allot more than with the other player). He likes the system though, so that's good.
We made a little quick test character with the stuff I already had. I'm now not really sure that ability score increases are correct at 0.1 CR, since the player rather put his points in his Str than in BAB (he boosted his Str from 15 to 20 in two levels, and only took one point of BAB), but, other than the ability scores, it looked great (for as far as we went).
Now I'll only need to have...
-The list of individual spell CR, and all that comes with it.
-A list of class abilities that players can pick on the fly (I think I'll make the list first, and check which ones I'm not sure about after that).
-The races for the base, and possible abilities branching from that (like that rage stuff I emailed you about some time ago).
After I'm done with those last three things, I think I'll be able to go try it out for real.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I came up with this (admittedly light-hearted) monster for a different thread and wanted to know what you thought of it. Your CR system put it at about 24000, but I think that's too high -- what do you think?

(Sorry about the lack of formatting; there's no convenient way to transfer this from Word.)

Tarrasque Swarm
Colossal Magical Beast (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 36000d10+972678 (1,170,678 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 50 ft
Armor Class: 3840 (–8 size, +7 Dex, +3830 natural, +1 haste), touch 10, flat-footed 3833
Base Attack/Grapple: +36000/—
Attack: Swarm (8d8)
Full Attack: Swarm (8d8)
Space/Reach: 1 mile/0 ft
Special Attacks: Distraction, frightful presence
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 60/—, hive mind, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 5000, resistances, scent, spell resistance 14000, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +18035, Ref +18016, Will +12008
Abilities: Str 85, Dex 25, Con 65, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Gather Information +4 (0), Jump +6037 (6000), Knowledge (nature) +599 (1½), Listen +6012 (6000), Search +6000 (6000), Spot +6012 (6000), Survival +6002 (6000) [+600 following tracks]
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (swarm), Improved Overrun, Improved Unarmed Strike, Investigator, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Toughness (6)
Epic Feats: Armor Skin (1900), Blinding Speed (2880), Damage Reduction (20), Dire Charge, Energy Resistance (acid) (15), Energy Resistance (cold) (15), Energy Resistance (electricity) (15), Energy Resistance (sonic) (15), Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Speed, Epic Toughness (33), Epic Will, Great Constitution (30), Great Dexterity (9), Great Strength (40), Improved Spell Resistance (6984), Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine, cold iron, mithral, silver, and any 6), Reflect Arrows, Superior Initiative

Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ~24000
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 18037 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque swarm can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 18012 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque swarm. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Carapace (Ex): The tarrasque swarm's armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.
Hive Mind (Ex): Any tarrasque swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die (or 36000 hit points, for a standard tarrasque swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 6. When a tarrasque swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, its Intelligence drops to 3.
Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque swarm. The tarrasque swarm regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a death effect. If the tarrasque swarm fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly, the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 1,170,688 hit points). The swarm is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.
The tarrasque swarm can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 1,170,688 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
Resistances: A tarrasque swarm’s epic feats give it resistance 150 to acid, cold, electricity, and sonic.
Skills: A tarrasque swarm has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

 

[kreynolds]

UK,

This may have already been asked and answered, but why aren't Frightful Presence and Keen Senses part of the Dragon Traits? Don't all dragons have both of these abilities?

 

[kreynolds]

Well what you want to do is match ECL (with Equipment) and Equipment Level.

So if something is CR 7 we know that adding seven levels of equipment will make it ECL 8.4 (7 + 1.4)*, we want to try it with eight levels of equipment.

UK,

The CR you have for a Mature Adult Copper Dragon (before silver rule) is 35 (rounded off, and I'm using this number for the sake of simplicity)...

CR 35
+35 levels of wealth (7) = 42

Now, you suggest that because the total CR increased, you should apply wealth again, right? So, I should apply wealth to the additional 7 levels?

+7 levels of wealth (1.4) = 43.4

However, the CR has increased yet again, so yet another application of wealth is necessary to round it off...

+1.4 levels of wealth (0.28) = 43.68

Now, application of the silver rule brings it down to a 40.

Is that how wealth (equipment) should work when calculating ECL? Just want to make sure I've got it right. The higher CRs were throwing me off. Also, did I apply the silver rule correctly?

 

[kreynolds]

Also, one more question. It's about Substituting Core Rules and CR. Most of your CRs convert over to two-thirds, but do you still recommend converting dragons over by one-half?

Just curious.