D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Greeting UK!

Hey Campbell mate!

Recently, I've come across a small quandry with your CR system and ECLs for some monsters. In the campaign I'm in the process of planning right now, the Gith races play a major role, and I'd like to offer them as a racial option for my players. Part of the difficulty here comes with the spell-like abilities the Gith gain as their character levels increase.

Some Thoughts I've Had:

Possible Solution 1: Divide Githyanki up into Base CR adjustment and then divide additional benefits over 20 levels for a CR/Character Level adjustment.

Possible Solution 2: Simply adjust CR for spell-like abilities when they are gained.

If anyone has any thoughts on these delayed racial benefits I'd appreciate any feedback you might offer.

Side Question: I've thought about basing experience gained on actual CR. I'm hoping that doing so would remedy the ECL Races/Core Races glitche we've seen in our campaigns. Do you have any thoughts on this approach?

Well Wulf has already answered the above (thanks for that Wulf mate).

One possibility is simply to total all the benefits and use that as the ECL - even if they don't start with all the benefits. As long as it doesn't derail them by more than one or two points of CR they should be okay.

 

[Verequus]

Hi Upper_Krust!

Your "Fire away!" reminds me of "Missiles away!" - if you get my reference, then I'll be impressed! One tip: It isn't KODT.

Hi Kavon!

It seems you have more experience with different systems than me, since I only had D&D 3rd edition to work with, and AD&D 2nd edition before that.

Let's see: Next to the mentioned systems I know a little of DSA (translated: TBE: The Black Eye, which is a powerful artifact - it lets see you into the past, present and future at any place and isn't the result of a fist fight .), Shadowrun and several freestyle RPGs. I played Vampire:TM and Werewolf:TA, more often, and I've read d20 Modern. If you like, I can mail you the point-buy system for d20 Modern - you'll have to compare it with the d20 Modern SRD. FCTF can be bought at RPGnow.com - even if you don't want to use it, you can see, how others did it. Lastly, if we already have CPs, then the Book of Distinctions and Drawbacks could provide extra CPs for some disadvantages. Then we would have something like GURPS lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/) - I didn't look much at it, so my comparison could be wrong.

Well, the magic system I'm working on isn't really portable at all, since it's a different approach. I could, however, make variant rules with which you can use the spell level system, or something like that.
Either way, the freeform character making thing should be viable for pretty much anything, as long as you have the correct costs for the systems you want to use.
As you'll understand, my main concern is making my own ideas work out properly first, though. So if I were ever so inclined to work out the costs of whatever other system I might want to insert for the thing, it would be after I'm finished with my own.

I meant with portability those variant rules. And I already assumed your concern - that was the reason, why I asked in the first place.

I'm trying to make money have less impact on character balance. I don't really like restricting my players when they want to do things, and if they go into a new town, one of them has a tendency to look for the wealthy neighbourhoods, if you catch my drift. Sure, I could have them be chased around a bit for stealing things, but at the end of the day he still has that money, which he can use to buy things. I could let the things he buys get stolen, but that gets frustrating after so many times.
U_K put the wealth thing at 0.2 CR/level, IIRC, which would be equal to 40 'slots', or (Spirit/Soul) Essence. You'd be investing your essence in a meta-game thing which says how much worth your items can be in total. As I mentioned earlier, this doesn't sit well with me, so I figured I'd just take a different approach.

IMO you make a mistake there. After reading up to page 13 or 14 of this thread, I know a bit of your exchange with U_K. He is right, that you should make it a necessity of spending CPs for this factor, like WotC makes it with every class implicitly. Normally, this isn't a factor to tinker with and should be left alone, but because of the following two cases it should be an explicit factor: 1. Someone wants to play a really rich guy, so he spends an entire level only for wealth and has a wealth limit of four levels higher than normal. 2. Someone makes a Vow of Poverty (a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds), so he has to get something else for compensation. Especially the first item should need a DM approval - the latter could be inappropriate in some settings and needs something like a racial abilities as a method for compensation. Actually, I think that there is no way to create a system with 100% freedom - something will always be a hindrance or a must-do.

Regarding the explicit factor: Because of the PC and NPC equipment factors themselves the entire amount of CPs per level must be divisible through 20, so you have the choice between 160 free CPs and 40 CPs for the PC equipment factor and 400 free CPs and 100 CPs for the equipment factor.

In the end, after the many modifications of the core rules, I feel I have then a beatle instead a bug - only the feeling and the cupholder are the same!

Wooh, you lost me after 'rules' there !!!!!!!!

I meant: "...then a VW beatle instead a VW bug ..."

Another question, which came up: How do you handle level drain? XP costs are returned in your system, after the item is used up. Is that unbalancing, if the expense of XPs for character development is allowed at a level-up? One suggestion: Let the XPs also return for permanent items, if those are destroyed. Better, you could let know the item creator, which item has been destroyed - in the case of the destruction of an artifact you have the reason why there is 95% chance of appearing a new enemy.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon!

Hey RuleMaster

Let's see: Next to the mentioned systems I know a little of DSA (translated: TBE: The Black Eye, which is a powerful artifact - it lets see you into the past, present and future at any place and isn't the result of a fist fight .), Shadowrun and several freestyle RPGs. I played Vampire:TM and Werewolf:TA, more often, and I've read d20 Modern. If you like, I can mail you the point-buy system for d20 Modern - you'll have to compare it with the d20 Modern SRD. FCTF can be bought at RPGnow.com - even if you don't want to use it, you can see, how others did it. Lastly, if we already have CPs, then the Book of Distinctions and Drawbacks could provide extra CPs for some disadvantages. Then we would have something like GURPS lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/) - I didn't look much at it, so my comparison could be wrong.

I'll have to look into some of those sometime.

I meant with portability those variant rules. And I already assumed your concern - that was the reason, why I asked in the first place.

Ok.
I think that, with some work, any variant system should be able to be ported into the system.
I don't really think I should need to put much work in these kinds of things, since people who want to use a variant with my system will most likely change allot of it on their own, to better suit their style of play, or what not.

IMO you make a mistake there. After reading up to page 13 or 14 of this thread, I know a bit of your exchange with U_K. He is right, that you should make it a necessity of spending CPs for this factor, like WotC makes it with every class implicitly.

Hmm... It would have to be a different Wealth system than the one WotC made then, I guess, since it simply makes no sense to me that a Soul uses some of itself to improve upon how wealthy its vessel can be. It either improves itself (magic, skills, and all that), or its vessel (combat abilities, hit points, etc). I guess it depends on how you look at things.

I know wealth should most likely be included somehow, for the reasons like the ones you gave, but I'd rather find a different way of doing it.

Regarding the explicit factor: Because of the PC and NPC equipment factors themselves the entire amount of CPs per level must be divisible through 20, so you have the choice between 160 free CPs and 40 CPs for the PC equipment factor and 400 free CPs and 100 CPs for the equipment factor.

I'm not sure what you mean with this, but I assume you're talking about how U_K rated the character wealth.
Do you mean that I could make it so that as the players gain CP, only 4/5th of it is free for them to use? I believe U_K suggested that in one of his earlier replies to me as well, but it didn't help with the problem I have with spending XP/Soul Essence on 'Wealth Allowance'.
Since I'd rather work on my spell system, or some other part of my system, I haven't really thought about different ways of working with Character Wealth.

I meant: "...then a VW beatle instead a VW bug ..."

Ah right Not much into cars, so go figure

Another question, which came up: How do you handle level drain? XP costs are returned in your system, after the item is used up. Is that unbalancing, if the expense of XPs for character development is allowed at a level-up? One suggestion: Let the XPs also return for permanent items, if those are destroyed. Better, you could let know the item creator, which item has been destroyed - in the case of the destruction of an artifact you have the reason why there is 95% chance of appearing a new enemy.

Yes, the way I had it in the back of my head was to have it free up used CR.
A level drain would free up 200 CR that were used on abilities. Since the character needs to spend time to 'use' CR, the player wont be able to reuse the CR on the spot, so it would still have about the same impact on the character while in battle with the creature that drained its level (though the aftereffect is less severe, which is fine with me). This also means that a character could have someone perform level drain on him/her, to be able to change abilities. I don't have clear rules on this though, so I don't yet know how I'd handle something like that.
With magic items, I was thinking of having it so that the character who uses the item will need to put CR into the item to activate its powers (which are returned to the character after the item is put away, or something like that).
How I'm going to handle the creation of the items, I'm not yet sure. I'm going to focus on the magic system, and then the weapon system, allong with the armor system, before I'm going to look into magic items, I think.

Edit: I was just looking through that GURPS lite document, and I had a thought of a way to make things like Wealth work for my psychologically, so to speak.
I think it would be a nice idea to have something like 'Flavor Points' or something. Things that don't actually change the character's physical or mental aptitude, but do effect the world arround him/her.
Things like.. how attractive they are, personality traits, what status/responsibilities they have (cleric, ninja, bodyguard, whatnot), as well as how wealthy they are.
I believe D20 Modern uses wealth rules that determine how good the character's economical status is (or however you call that)? Something like.. how much they can afford to spend in a certain period of time.
I would probably be able to make something work with something like that as a basis.

 

[Verequus]

Hi Kavon!

Sorry, I didn't find the time to write my questions and comments clearly up. Hopefully, I will do it tomorrow. Just to inform you, that I haven't anyone forgotten.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon!

Hey RuleMaster

Sorry, I didn't find the time to write my questions and comments clearly up. Hopefully, I will do it tomorrow. Just to inform you, that I haven't anyone forgotten.

Ah, don't worry about it. Take your time, and all that
I keep getting a little further with the idea each week, it seems, so I guess there's a steady progress, at least for now.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Encounter Level Calculator (spreadsheet)

Heya folks...

After a whole lot of mathematical wrangling and brain contortioins, Excel hammering and cursing, I finally completed my EL calculator this weekend. I am ashamed to admit that it would not have taken a "professional" mathematician more than a couple of hours to boil down the relevant algorithms, but for a piker like me, I'm pretty proud that it finally seems to be working.

You'll see on the sheet 6 different "tools" you can use in concert with UK's system for calculating different kinds of ELs.

My favorite tool is the one in the upper right-- enter a desired EL and the CR of the creature you want to use, it tells you how many of that creature you can use in the encounter.

I'm thinking of adding a "Complete Encounter" spreadsheet where you enter one Nemesis, 1 or 2 Henchmen, and a desired total EL, and it tells you how many low level mooks to use to round out the encounter.

The formulas are hidden and the worksheet is protected, but it is not password protected, so if you want to poke around, you can. (The formulas are not pretty, so they are hidden for appearances' sake.)

The file is too large to upload, so if you would like to see it, email me.

Feedback is appreciated!


Wulf

 

[Kavon]

*got the Excel file*

It looks good, for as far as I know how the system works

The "Complete Encounter" thing sounds interesting enough. It'll be a nice addition to the whole, that's for sure.

Hmm.. I've been poking around in Excel myself for a bunch of weeks now, but I have to say I have no idea how you hide formula like that, nor how to make the thing protected (or how to reverse these things, for that matter) o__o

Edit: Oh, nevermind, I figured it out
*is always interested to see how people did the formulas*
Helps me understand how to do things I didn't know how to do with Excel

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm looking over the file now. The formulas sure are complicated -- I think I should be able to simplify them.

 

[CRGreathouse]

OK, let's start. I'm taking a fairly simple formula, as far as yours go, and making some kind of sense of it. This is the formula in cell D8.

=1+4*(LOG((2^(TRUNC(LOG(D7,2)))),2))+TRUNC((((D7/(2^(TRUNC(LOG(D7,2)))))-1)*4))

First, there are lots of extra parens in there. This makes me sad, since it's harder to read. (Also, in a fit of pique, I changed TRUNC to INT -- they work the same if you don't use the optional argument of TRUNC.)

=1+4*(LOG(2^(Int(LOG(D7,2))),2))+Int(((D7/(2^(Int(LOG(D7,2)))))-1)*4)

Next, there is no reason to take the (base 2) log of a power (of 2).

=1+4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+Int(((D7/(2^(Int(LOG(D7,2)))))-1)*4)

Distributing for reading ease:

=1+4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+Int(4*(D7/(2^(Int(LOG(D7,2)))))-4)

Simplifying, since Int (blah - 4) = Int (blah) - 4:

=4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+Int(4*(D7/(2^(Int(LOG(D7,2))))))-3

Now it's at least possible to figure out where this is going. The first term is pretty clear, but the second seems odd... with internal rounding, it's susceptable to unusual results from numbers with large round-off. While this may make sense when making a formula from a chart, there's no reason to come up with a formula that rigidly follows the space constraints on the chart.

Note that this step changes the value by removing internal rounding. Without this step, the values will presumably follow the chart... but the chart rounds, and we don't like that in Excel. Plus, this will make everything look neater.

=4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+Int(4*(D7/(2^(LOG(D7,2)))))-3

With that done, there's another log of a power to remove:

=4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+Int(4*(D7/D7))-3

Obvious simplification then follows.

=4*(Int(LOG(D7,2)))+1

This is much better. Of course, we can go one step beyond -- there's no reason to round until the end:

=Int(4*LOG(D7,2))+1

This produces the exact same results from 1-22, and similar results (always within 1) outside that range.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Now it's at least possible to figure out where this is going. The first term is pretty clear, but the second seems odd... with internal rounding, it's susceptable to unusual results from numbers with large round-off. While this may make sense when making a formula from a chart, there's no reason to come up with a formula that rigidly follows the space constraints on the chart.

Actually, I started with the simpler formula. That was the easy part.

The fact that the simple logarithmic formulas "broke" at 23 (and upwards) annoyed me, and confused me; and getting it to conform to the chart (the weird round-off that confused you) was the hard part.

If you don't use the round-off, then you will eventually lose the shorthand maxims of both CR and EL (double the combatants = -2 EL, and double the CR = +4 EL, respectively).

It causes other breakdowns in UKs EL chart, which I did not like.


Wulf