Value of BAB and Spell Casting
- Thread starter Stormborn
- Start date
Stormborn
Explorer
Thanee said:
Ok, since this seems to be the consensus, or relatively so, Is Thanee's estimation correct? Is Arcane Spell casting worth 3 times as much as Full BAB?
Now, to bring in the hypotheitcals:
What if you gave both classes feats every other level so that tthey were equal in that regard?
What if you cap both classes at 10th level?
Stormborn
Explorer
Jdvn1 said:
Below is my most current working set of numbers, based on revisions made after the above discussion. While it is not my ultimate goal, I am starting by trying to assign point values for the core d20 classes. If my point values are correct, then at 1st level all the classes should be roughly equal (+/- 5), realizing that some will have class features that improve over time and some will not. I also recognize that not all class features are alike, and that setting an arbitrary point value for them is a serious flaw in the system. However, my ultimate goal for this system is to establish a way for players to customize a class begining at level 1, but there after follow the same system of progression from Talent-Feat-Talent-Feat etc. (the progression used for the base classes in d20 M, and assuming no multiclassing) Thus, long term progression based on feats or feat like class features isn't really vital to my goal, as they will all be the same.
Costs:
Hit Points
1d10+ Con mod cost 20
1d8+ Con mod cost 10
1d6+ Con mod cost 5
1d4+ Con mod cost 0
Skill Points
8+ Int mod cost 20 points
6+ Int mod cost 10 points
4 + Int mod cost 5 points
2+ Int mod cost 0 points
Base Attack Bonus
Good 10 points
Average 5 points
Poor 0 points
Saves (each bought separately)
Good cost 10
Average cost 5 (from d20 M)
Poor cost 0
Weapon Groups (from Unearthed Arcana)
Best(Basic +4) cost 20
Good (Basic +3) cost 10
Average (Basic +2) cost 5
Poor (Basic+1) cost 0
Spell casting
Best cost 20 (as Sorcerer)
Good cost 10 (as Bard)
Average cost 5 (as Paladin)
Poor (none) cost 0 (as Fighter)
(Cost x2 for arcane progression)
Special Abilities/Feats
5 each
Thus, using the 4 classes used in the DnD Basic Game:
1st level Cleric: 65 (10 [HD]+ 0 [skills] + 5 [BAB] + 20 [saves]+5 [weapon group]+ 20[spell casting]+ 5 [special ability/feat])
1st level Fighter: 60 (20 [HD]+ 0 [skills] + 5 [BAB] + 10 [saves]+20 [weapon group]+ 0 [spell casting]+ 5[special ability/feat])
1st level Rogue: 55 (5 [HD]+ 20 [skills] + 10 [BAB] + 10 [saves]+5 [weapon group]+ 0 [spell casting]+ 10[special ability/feat])
1st level Sorcerer: 55 (0 [HD]+ 0 [skills] + 0 [BAB] + 10 [saves]+0 [weapon group]+ 40 [spell casting]+ 5[special ability/feat])
had to play with the cost of arcane spell casting, and I am not sure it really is worth 2x divine casting, but that gives me the desired +/- 5 cost if we use Fighter as the base.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Stormborn,
Are you familiar with Upper Krust's PDF "Challenging Challenge Ratings"? Among other things, he breaks down the value of the different classes. The link is
http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11206
What you want is on page 19. The class breakdowns are given in terms of a percentage of a single point of Challenge Rating (CR)over 20 levels. A class that has a bonus feat has its value increased by 1%. A class that has a bonus feat every level would be worth 20% (so +4 CR if it has all 20 levels).
The value of a fighter BAB is 20%, and a fighter's iterative attacks is 6.25%. That's 26.25% over 20 levels, or 1.3125 the value of a feat per level. So a BAB is worth about 1.3 feats. Since a point of BAB is a little better than weapon focus, that's about right.
A level of wizard spellcasting is worth 44%, or 2.2 feats. A level of clerical spellcasting is worth 38%, or 1.9 feats. That's averaged over 20 levels; the higher levels are worth more, of course, and the lower levels are worth less. In other words, the spellcasting power of a 20th level wizard is worth 44 feats, but the bulk is in the higher level spells.
I think that UK underestimates the value of Ranger or Paladin spellcasting a little- each averages to 2 feats over 20 levels. But I could be wrong.
Some CRs have been revised in version 5, but v5 doesn't have a class breakdown. There has been a lot of refinement in the theory about XP and Encounter Levels (EL) since these PDFs came out, but the class breakdown is what I wanted to point out to you.
Are you familiar with Upper Krust's PDF "Challenging Challenge Ratings"? Among other things, he breaks down the value of the different classes. The link is
http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11206
What you want is on page 19. The class breakdowns are given in terms of a percentage of a single point of Challenge Rating (CR)over 20 levels. A class that has a bonus feat has its value increased by 1%. A class that has a bonus feat every level would be worth 20% (so +4 CR if it has all 20 levels).
The value of a fighter BAB is 20%, and a fighter's iterative attacks is 6.25%. That's 26.25% over 20 levels, or 1.3125 the value of a feat per level. So a BAB is worth about 1.3 feats. Since a point of BAB is a little better than weapon focus, that's about right.
A level of wizard spellcasting is worth 44%, or 2.2 feats. A level of clerical spellcasting is worth 38%, or 1.9 feats. That's averaged over 20 levels; the higher levels are worth more, of course, and the lower levels are worth less. In other words, the spellcasting power of a 20th level wizard is worth 44 feats, but the bulk is in the higher level spells.
I think that UK underestimates the value of Ranger or Paladin spellcasting a little- each averages to 2 feats over 20 levels. But I could be wrong.
Some CRs have been revised in version 5, but v5 doesn't have a class breakdown. There has been a lot of refinement in the theory about XP and Encounter Levels (EL) since these PDFs came out, but the class breakdown is what I wanted to point out to you.
