D&D 5E Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft - A Grognard Finally Reads It (Review)

[Alzrius]

I6 was a Hammer Horror spoof. The first (and only) true Ravenloft publication was I7, The House on Griffin Hill.

~Nerd voice~

Akshullee, Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill was I10. I7 was Baltron's Beacon.

 

[Retreater]

I think 5e adventure settings always risk suffering in comparison to 2e antecedents. This is by design: after they bought TSR, WotC did a forensic analysis of TSR's finances and discovered that all those 2e settings were an albatross for the company. They each became their own game within the game, fragmenting the player base and making it so that almost all of them lost money, despite being beautiful and richly developed. So now WotC tries to keep settings from feeling exclusive from the rest of the game, which tends to make them more generic, and also means that WotC seldom release follow-up books exclusive to a particular setting.

I'm guessing that VRGtR didn't do too well either, just based on my seeing it put on a fire sale for 70% off 18 months after its release and seeing stacks and stacks of it unsold on game store shelves. And Ravenloft was one of their bestselling product lines during that era. And Curse of Strahd is one of the highest regarded 5e adventures.

What might have been a better product? Maybe something like a Tales of the Yawning Portal or Ghosts of Saltmarsh adventure compilation updating those Ravenloft adventures to 5e - for the fans of Curse of Strahd who want more horror-themed games?

OR if you're going to do a campaign setting where the point is to face monsters in their nightmare prisons, you know, give us the stats of the monsters. Give us realistically scaled maps. Give us maybe a few maps of their lairs/castles. Tell us about their entourage of henchmen.

But what we got was a series of articles written by work-for-hire authors, cobbled together in a soulless abomination like Mordenheim's monster.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The Dark Powers checks were fairly arbitrary and rare. The PC commit bloody murder dozens of times and the dice don't care, but this one time the PC steals an apple and that's what gets the DP's attention, because the DM rolled a 3 or less on a d100? Nah. It's actually more appropriate and more fun for the DM to decide when the DPs take notice, or to work it out with the player. I'm doing that now--I've even discussed with the player what they might turn into, if they keep playing their character in an evil-ish way. Curses from the Dark Powers are a powerful roleplaying tool if they aren't left to random chance.

Not weighing in on the OP's points, as I haven't read VgTR and while I had opinions about the news when it was under development, I don't really see the point in challenging peoples subjective like or dislike of the product now that it is out. But I wanted to point out something about Powers Checks. I don't know how this aspect of the game is handled in the new version, and I don't think there is anything wrong with them taking another mechanical or non-mechanical approach to dealing with the corrupting effect of the Dark Powers. In the original Black Box it wasn't arbitrary though (and it got less arbitrary as the line went on because they began to really codify different actions). But generally speaking it was a 1% chance for typical roll and at least a 5 % chance for acts that were completely evil (while also stating that it shouldn't go past 10% for Player characters). Later "Acts of Ultimate Darkness" were introduced which basically meant the act was so egregious they could mean a 100% chance of failure.

While again I wouldn't object to using a different system or going by fiat, I think the old system was one of the best things about the setting. One thing you realize after running a lot of campaigns is 1% actually can come up more often than you would think, but you also realize that the fact that players can get away with evil much of the time, means they tempt fate more (and just for my own personal taste as a GM and player it adds an element of surprise and excitement making it a roll where the outcome isn't known).

The black box basically just had it at default of 1%, but 5% for truly horrible acts, with a cap of 10%. This got expanded in the red box set and by the Domains of Dread Book you had the following table (Believe Red Box had a similar table but don't have that in front of me at the moment):

And these were the act of ultimate darkness rules by the DoD book:

 

[Alzrius]

And Ravenloft was one of their bestselling product lines during that era.

Just a bit of context; if "that era" was AD&D 2nd Edition, then Ravenloft's campaign setting debut did indeed put other 2E campaign settings to shame, even if it never reached the heights of its 1E counterparts. To use a photo from Ben Riggs' twitter feed:

 

[Bedrockgames]

What exemplifies the general lack of attention and care in the book are the map scales. Granted, this is something I could change easily, but it shows a bizarre absence of understanding of a world.
Most of these domains are tiny, unrealistically so.

• The "vast deserts" of Har'Akir is 25 miles across. A party can cross the desert in two days.
• The zombie ravaged domain of Falkovnia is 15 miles across - with mountain ranges spanning 5 miles.
• The magical wasteland of Hazlan has features separated by 2 miles (a 30 minute trek), where magically-corrupted purple worms slither.
• Lamordia's Sleeping Beast mountain range "stretches for miles" - 18 miles to be exact.

Again, not weighing on the book, as I haven't read it, but that map scale actually sounds pretty close to the original black box scale (which was 1 inch equalled ten miles). Ravenlof was originally quite small compared to other settings and also designed to have much lower population levels than other settings. Har'Akir I think is about that size give or take in most of 2E Ravenloft (I am just eyeballing it looking at the map so possible I am not 100% spot on here). It is a little hard to be precise looking at the PDF (I have the box on my shelf but don't feel like taking it down). But I would say the Sleeping Beast in the Black Box looks to be roughly 25 miles in length (but it is unevenly shaped so that length could be less depending on where you measure from).

Scale in Ravenloft was always a major point of contention and debate for people. The Black Box had a pretty small scale, which I thought worked because it made it less epic fantasy and much more intimate and provincial. I believe the Domain of Dread Book also used a 10 mile scale but the map distances may not have been the same as the black box. Pretty sure the d20 version established an idea that distances were malleable and subjective (I thought this was interesting and kind of in keeping with the concept of Ravenloft but made everything too 'nightmare lands' (the original nightmare lands from the black box).

Again not weighing in on the book itself, but this honestly sounds like more of a return to the original black box's intention in terms of scale (which I felt worked beautifully in practice). That was always a source of debate though as some people found it unrealistic (personally I felt it worked fine for a demiplane purgatory).

 

[Alzrius]

Again, not weighing on the book, as I haven't read it, but that map scale actually sounds pretty close to the original black box scale (which was 1 inch equalled ten miles). Ravenlof was originally quite small compared to other settings and also designed to have much lower population levels than other settings. Har'Akir I think is about that size give or take in most of 2E Ravenloft (I am just eyeballing it looking at the map so possible I am not 100% spot on here).

Here's what it looks like after joining the Amber Wastes cluster (from Domains of Dread):

 

[Bedrockgames]

Here's what it looks like after joining the Amber Wastes cluster (from Domains of Dread):

Thanks. This was the old hex overlay (with 10 miles for a 1" hex being the default for the core and for the islands of dread):

 

[Retreater]

Again, not weighing on the book, as I haven't read it, but that map scale actually sounds pretty close to the original black box scale (which was 1 inch equalled ten miles). Ravenlof was originally quite small compared to other settings and also designed to have much lower population levels than other settings. Har'Akir I think is about that size give or take in most of 2E Ravenloft (I am just eyeballing it looking at the map so possible I am not 100% spot on here). It is a little hard to be precise looking at the PDF (I have the box on my shelf but don't feel like taking it down). But I would say the Sleeping Beast in the Black Box looks to be roughly 25 miles in length (but it is unevenly shaped so that length could be less depending on where you measure from).

I'll take your word on that. I have the red box (which I think is the revised version from 2E), and its scale is 1 inch = 100 miles.
The map in that one shows the Sleeping Beast mountains as about 150 miles and Falkovnia being 350 miles across (hardly able to be crossed within a day).
I think that these distances are more effective at conveying a sense of isolation and dread. Also, they make more narrative sense for what is described in the authors' text in VRGtR. Mountains that stretch for "miles" - yeah, technically that can be 18 miles, but that's not usually how the expression is used.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'll take your word on that. I have the red box (which I think is the revised version from 2E), and its scale is 1 inch = 100 miles.
The map in that one shows the Sleeping Beast mountains as about 150 miles and Falkovnia being 350 miles across (hardly able to be crossed within a day).
I think that these distances are more effective at conveying a sense of isolation and dread.

I do remember the scale shifting over time and think that change was one of the things that helped establish the divide over scale. But you can see the scale from the black box in the hex sheet I posted above and here:

And the Domains of Dread:

Some people will prefer the larger scale. I think that is fine. It is a subjective thing. But I was just pointing out that those scales are faithful to the original black box (which I think means you really can't file it under lack of attention or care to map scale (they are just going back to the original intent).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm staying out of this one. VRGtR angries up the blood.

 

[Alzrius]

I'll take your word on that. I have the red box (which I think is the revised version from 2E), and its scale is 1 inch = 100 miles.
The map in that one shows the Sleeping Beast mountains as about 150 miles and Falkovnia being 350 miles across (hardly able to be crossed within a day).

The red boxed set was the second of Ravenloft's 2E incarnations (the first being the original Forbidden Lore boxed set, whereas Domains of Dread was the third). The poster maps in the red boxed set used different scales for the various islands of terror than they did for the Core. Har'Akir, surprisingly, looks like it was at its smallest in that set:

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm staying out of this one. VRGtR angries up the blood.

I found because I never got invested in it after that initial debate, I am finding it pretty easy to not have strong feelings one way or another. The old stuff is still available and I have it, and the new setting seems designed more for 5E's present audience. I do plan to get it at some point just because I would like to have the new maps and see what changes they ended up making.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'll take your word on that. I have the red box (which I think is the revised version from 2E), and its scale is 1 inch = 100 miles.
The map in that one shows the Sleeping Beast mountains as about 150 miles and Falkovnia being 350 miles across (hardly able to be crossed within a day).

I don't really have a strong opinion on what the most ideal size of a mountain range is in the setting (especially since they can vary considerably in the real world). The closest ranges to me are the white mountains and the Berkshires (I think those are about 100 miles in length, but they are also part of the larger Appalachian range). I couldn't find its width. Finding the width of ranges is proving difficult in google but I might just be tired this morning----and I am not much of a hiker or nature person. And just going by the topographic map, I can't tell where the sides of the range technically begin). But I did notice that the default for google maps when I type in Berkshire Mountains is 10 miles to an inch (maybe being from the Boston area 10 miles just feels right to me because things are a bit closer together than they are out west):

 

[Retreater]

I found because I never got invested in it after that initial debate, I am finding it pretty easy to not have strong feelings one way or another. The old stuff is still available and I have it, and the new setting seems designed more for 5E's present audience. I do plan to get it at some point just because I would like to have the new maps and see what changes they ended up making.

Yeah, and like I said in the first post, I got the book at a substantial discount (and likely wouldn't have purchased it otherwise). I don't feel like I got a bad value for what I spent - I would've just preferred a different take on the content.
Also, like I said, it comes down to preference for the map scale; I can easily change that. It will just take as long as makes narrative sense to get to a specific location. And if my Slumbering Beast Mountains in my campaign stretch farther than the eye can see, that's what it is.
Fan-created content like @dave2008 's Project Darklords (which looks fantastic, btw) will fill in the gaps that I perceive was left by VRGtR. The fear, horror, madness, sinkhole of evil, and other traits from the 2E red box setting, I can try to update to 5E.
It's not a useless book - I'm just not going to use a lot of it in play. I am viewing it more like a gazetteer introduction to the setting with the rest of the work being done by me or others.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yeah, and like I said in the first post, I got the book at a substantial discount (and likely wouldn't have purchased it otherwise). I don't feel like I got a bad value for what I spent - I would've just preferred a different take on the content.
Also, like I said, it comes down to preference for the map scale; I can easily change that. It will just take as long as makes narrative sense to get to a specific location. And if my Slumbering Beast Mountains in my campaign stretch farther than the eye can see, that's what it is.
Fan-created content like @dave2008 's Project Darklords (which looks fantastic, btw) will fill in the gaps that I perceive was left by VRGtR. The fear, horror, madness, sinkhole of evil, and other traits from the 2E red box setting, I can try to update to 5E.
It's not a useless book - I'm just not going to use a lot of it in play. I am viewing it more like a gazetteer introduction to the setting with the rest of the work being done by me or others.

I find because I started on the black box, that has always been my baseline and any further changes tended to irk me a little (I was more open to changes as they came out in the 2E era, but some of the lore got too deep for me by the end: I just preferred that bare bones, fill in the blanks approach).

My impression from the design discussions was the new version is more multi-genre horror, which is fine, but for me the Ravenloft setting was always classic and gothic horror in tone (that is what set it apart from Vampire and many other horror RPGs at the time). But again, that is personal taste. I can understand that they have to consider appealing to a broader audience (and the films that to me were just classic grown up, always playing on TV, are now nearly 100 years old, and probably don't get as much airplay).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also this thread did prompt me to actually buy Van Richter's Guide to Ravenloft (it is only like 16 dollars on Amazon right now).

 

[Retreater]

Also this thread did prompt me to actually buy Van Richter's Guide to Ravenloft (it is only like 16 dollars on Amazon right now).

That's what got me, honestly.

My impression from the design discussions was the new version is more multi-genre horror, which is fine, but for me the Ravenloft setting was always classic and gothic horror in tone (that is what set it apart from Vampire and many other horror RPGs at the time). But again, that is personal taste. I can understand that they have to consider appealing to a broader audience (and the films that to me were just classic grown up, always playing on TV, are now nearly 100 years old, and probably don't get as much airplay).

Our Ravenloft campaigns back in the day had a variety of inspirations as well. I think this was largely because of the module design.
Strahd was more Hammer-film, Hour of the Knife was a Victorian slasher film, Adams Wrath was closer to Mary Shelley's novel than the Universal movie. Then we adapted legends and folklore to make original domains (one based off the Pine Barrens going after the Jersey Devil was memorable as was medieval Prague going after the original Golem).
It was some of the peak creativity in my development as a D&D player. And even though (as mentioned in an earlier post) the unique settings divided the player base and may have lost money, it provided a richness and diversity to the hobby that helped it grow into a lifelong passion spanning decades. I never got that from from the "back to the dungeon" design of 3e to the current "one size fits most" mass appeal era of 5e.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's what got me, honestly.


Our Ravenloft campaigns back in the day had a variety of inspirations as well. I think this was largely because of the module design.
Strahd was more Hammer-film, Hour of the Knife was a Victorian slasher film, Adams Wrath was closer to Mary Shelley's novel than the Universal movie. Then we adapted legends and folklore to make original domains (one based off the Pine Barrens going after the Jersey Devil was memorable as was medieval Prague going after the original Golem).
It was some of the peak creativity in my development as a D&D player. And even though (as mentioned in an earlier post) the unique settings divided the player base and may have lost money, it provided a richness and diversity to the hobby that helped it grow into a lifelong passion spanning decades. I never got that from from the "back to the dungeon" design of 3e to the current "one size fits most" mass appeal era of 5e.

I've had a lot of trouble making Ravenloft work with 3E and later editions. I tried running the d20 version for years and it was fine but it never felt like my old sessions. The moment I ran it using the 2E material that old atmosphere I had enjoyed came back. So I think Ravenloft is a setting where system can have a considerable impact on how it feels. And it is also a setting that people often approached in very different ways over the course of its development.

 

[Voadam]

IIRC, Duke Gundar was both older and younger than Strahd at the same time, due to wacky aging magic (I could be remembering a different vampire, though). Ankhtepot is powered not by time but by designer fiat. He's as powerful as he needs to be.

Gundar was an older vampire and a bit more powerful, but not as smart and effective and not a spellcaster. Strahd had to work on dealing with his more powerful neighbor. "Duke Gundar, a vampire lord, rules Gundarak. He is older than Strahd but weaker in spirit."

I think you are thinking of Lyssa Von Zarovich, a descendant of the brother Strahd murdered who eventually became a vampire herself a century ago. In Thoughts of Darkness it is revealed she cheesed the interaction of rules on vampire aging categories and ghost aging attacks.

"Ironically, Lyssa shares some of Strahd's own fate: In order to better oppose him, she struck her own dark pact and murdered her fiance to honor it. In addition, Lyssa tormented her former lover's ghost by seducing his incorporeal spirit and laughing sadistically when he bemoaned his inability to kiss or hold her. In frustration, he attacked her repeatedly with his aging touch, thus aging her over 200 years in the course of a night, before she wholly obliterated him from existence. As a result, Lyssa has achieved Very Old status (300-399) in terms of her vampiric powers, even though she has been a vampire for only a century. Her gaming statistics reflect this artificial enhancement."

I hated that official rules exploit so much.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Gundar was an older vampire and a bit more powerful, but not as smart and effective and not a spellcaster. Strahd had to work on dealing with his more powerful neighbor. "Duke Gundar, a vampire lord, rules Gundarak. He is older than Strahd but weaker in spirit."

Gundar was also barely developed in the early days of Ravenloft. There just wasn't a huge amount of information on Gundar or Gundarak (I remember him briefly appearing I think in Knight of the Black Rose, and in Feast of Goblyns he got a little bit of detail). So when he came up in campaigns I remember mostly inventing everything whole cloth save for a few details mentioned in passing about him in different books.