D&D 5E Variant Eldritch Blast and Pact of The Blade

[doctorbadwolf]

I definitely think this is the biggest problem with the pact of the blade. While I think your fix is better because it ties EB scaling to Warlock level (curtailing the 1-3 level warlock dip), a simple hack for those who want to keep their homebrew footprint to a minimum would be to add to the blade pact “If you know the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you can channel the beam of force through your pact weapon when you cast it. If you do, make a melee spell attack against a creature within the reach of your pact weapon instead of a ranged spell attack. If the spell would create more than one beam, you can make up to one melee spell attack for each beam. You must be holding your pact weapon to use this feature.”

Or something along those lines.

Yeah honestly the scaling by warlock level might not even really be necessary anyway, and your wording might be a lot cleaner than mine, mechanically.

Id like for a fully invested BladeLock with several invocations geared toward gishing to be able to basically treat their melee attacks as both a melee weapon attack and a use of Eldritch Blast, both gaining the benefit of those invocations, and being able to take weapon oriented feats and benefit from them.

I don’t know if there is a balanced way to do that. Maybe some part of that has to live in Hexblade?

This really makes me want to write up a Stephen King style Gunslinger using Warlock template. Not useful for the convo at hand, but that's where I'm at.

Hell yeah, let’s talk about that in the alternate esoteric classes thread? I think there is something there, even if it overlaps with both Binder and Archer.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Id like for a fully invested BladeLock with several invocations geared toward gishing to be able to basically treat their melee attacks as both a melee weapon attack and a use of Eldritch Blast, both gaining the benefit of those invocations, and being able to take weapon oriented feats and benefit from them.

I don’t know if there is a balanced way to do that. Maybe some part of that has to live in Hexblade?

I've said a few times on these board that warlock (an cleric)'s archetypes should have been progressing along two lines.
1) Choose a Patron/Domain: gain an Extra spell list and a Boon (Dark One's Blessing, frex)
2) Choose an archetype: gain a feature at level 1, 6, 10 etc (Hexblade = gish, Occultist = rituals, Binder = summoner, Hexer = curses ++, Spellthief, Entrancing Mystic etc)

Then have the usual archetype's features (Fiendish resilience, hurl through hell, thrall master) become optional, Patron restricted Invocations.

Same for the cleric.
1) Pick a Domain: gain an Extra spell list and one special Channel Divinity.
2) Pick an archetype: gain a feature at 1st, 2nd, 6th level etc (Warpriest, Oracle, Divine Messenger, Condemner etc)

 

[Fenris-77]

Hell yeah, let’s talk about that in the alternate esoteric classes thread? I think there is something there, even if it overlaps with both Binder and Archer.

Huh. I don't think I'm familiar with that thread.

 

[TwoSix]

Id like for a fully invested BladeLock with several invocations geared toward gishing to be able to basically treat their melee attacks as both a melee weapon attack and a use of Eldritch Blast, both gaining the benefit of those invocations, and being able to take weapon oriented feats and benefit from them.

I don’t know if there is a balanced way to do that. Maybe some part of that has to live in Hexblade?

Certainly not impossible, but challenging with the current setup of Warlock invocations. Assuming a simple swap of an EB attack for a pact blade attack, allowing weapon properties and feats to be carried over, you could be looking at 4 attacks for 1d10+20 damage each (5 stat, 10 GWM, 5 Thirsting Blade) at 17th level.

I think the core idea, that Eldritch Blast is the Warlock equivalent to the Extra Attack progression feature, and Invocations and Pact Boons can let you sub in other options for the standard 1d10+0 ranged force attack, has a ton of merit. Personally, I've always viewed the Blade pact warlock like Dante from Devil May Cry, and being able to freely switch between weapon attacks and magical blasts fits that to a T.

 

[TwoSix]

I've said a few times on these board that warlock (an cleric)'s archetypes should have been progressing along two lines.

I think you're right. Heck, if every class had two axes of subclasses to pick from, you probably could have done the PHB in 6-8 classes.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think you're right. Heck, if every class had two axes of subclasses to pick from, you probably could have done the PHB in 6-8 classes.

While I prefer to keep the 12 classes to be sure everyone have their preferences reflected, I think you are right.

I think there could have been a fighter who go like this:
1) Pick a Fighting Style (Defender, Slayer, Sharpshooter, Leader, Duelist), gain one feature at 1st level, 6th, 14th about HOW you fight.
2) Pick an archetype about your thematic specialty (Arcane Knight, Champion etc) for level 3, 7, 10 etc.

** If you'd like to reduce the number of class, Paladin and Ranger could be made into either archetype or fighting style.

I guess bards could have something like:
1) Pick a specialty: Chanter (Inspiration+), Loremaster (Skill+), Skald (Fighting+)
2) Pick an archetype: Glamour, Whisper, Dirgesinger, Storm caller etc

Ranger already had two lines, but would benefit from those line being more than ribbons.

Barbs could have a choice:
1) Pick a Warpath: Rager (Reckless+), Thane (Support+), Dreadnought (Armored+)
2) Pick an archetype

 

[TwoSix]

While I prefer to keep the 12 classes to be sure everyone have their preferences reflected, I think you are right.

I think there could have been a fighter who go like this:
1) Pick a Fighting Style (Defender, Slayer, Sharpshooter, Leader, Duelist), gain one feature at 1st level, 6th, 14th about HOW you fight.
2) Pick an archetype about your thematic specialty (Arcane Knight, Champion etc) for level 3, 7, 10 etc.

Yea, I like that. Make Fighting Style a second axis, and then have higher level features available at various intervals, OR you can go back and take a lower-level fighting style if you want diversity.

For Rogue, you could make SA and Cunning Action one of the options for a second subclass, and then have a Mastermind/Skill type rogue, a front-line combatant rogue, a tricky manuever rogue, etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Huh. I don't think I'm familiar with that thread.

Thread 'Interest In A More Esoteric 5e?'
D&D 5E - Interest In A More Esoteric 5e?

Certainly not impossible, but challenging with the current setup of Warlock invocations. Assuming a simple swap of an EB attack for a pact blade attack, allowing weapon properties and feats to be carried over, you could be looking at 4 attacks for 1d10+20 damage each (5 stat, 10 GWM, 5 Thirsting Blade) at 17th level.

I think the core idea, that Eldritch Blast is the Warlock equivalent to the Extra Attack progression feature, and Invocations and Pact Boons can let you sub in other options for the standard 1d10+0 ranged force attack, has a ton of merit. Personally, I've always viewed the Blade pact warlock like Dante from Devil May Cry, and being able to freely switch between weapon attacks and magical blasts fits that to a T.

Well, for one thing I’d get rid of Thirsting Blade (or just not make it compatible with this variant). You’ve got Agonizing Blast, you don’t need another stack of damage on top of that.

Beyond that, I don’t think the damage you could get to would necessarily be greater than what other melee combatants can do, so I don’t know that the cost needs to be super high.

 

[Laurefindel]

Possible wording suggestion:

"When you make an attack using your Eldritch Blast feature with a melee weapon in hand, you can choose to make a melee spell attack instead, using the weapon as a spell focus (see page xxx) for the feature. When you do so, your Eldritch Blast attack gains the properties of the weapon used as a spell focus and you can add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll."

Potential caveat with this:

• the finesse property would technically force your to use Str or Dex (instead of CHA) for attack and damage rolls AND add Cha as a bonus to the damage roll.
• it synergizes weirdly with the net.
• it leaves magical bonuses out of the equation.

Therefore...

"When you make an attack using your Eldritch Blast class feature with a melee weapon in hand, you can choose to make a melee spell attack instead, using the weapon as a spell focus (see page xxx) for the Eldritch Blast feature. When you do so, your Eldritch Blast attacks gains all properties from the weapon used as a spell focus with the exception of the finesse and special properties, including magical features and bonuses to attack and damage rolls. When you make a melee spell attack this way, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll."

It still leaves fighting styles out, for the better of the worse.

 

[TwoSix]

Thread 'Interest In A More Esoteric 5e?'
D&D 5E - Interest In A More Esoteric 5e?

Well, for one thing I’d get rid of Thirsting Blade (or just not make it compatible with this variant). You’ve got Agonizing Blast, you don’t need another stack of damage on top of that.

Beyond that, I don’t think the damage you could get to would necessarily be greater than what other melee combatants can do, so I don’t know that the cost needs to be super high.

Yea, if you get rid of Thirsting Blade I think you're OK. You get your 4th attack a little earlier than Fighter, but honestly Fighter should get attack #4 earlier anyway (that's one of my houserules).