Variant Skills/Weapons/Armor system

[Nellisir]

I'm throwing this stuff out here partially to keep track of my thoughts, and partially to steal thoughts from other people. It's unorganized and unwritten at this point.

INSPIRATION: Blue Rose has favored skills, known skills, and unknown skills. Favored known skills have (level +3) ranks, known skills have (level+3/2) ranks, and unknown skills have 0 ranks (whether favored or not, I think). The favored/known thing is a bit confusing, since you have roughly twice the number of favored skills as known skills, so it's unclear why you would ever not favor a known skill, or what the benefit is of favoring an unknown skill (admittedly I may not have read enough).

BASIC IDEA: Characters get twice the number of skill points they currently do but only at first level -- no skill points at higher levels (stay with me here). Instead of buying ranks, though, one skill point buys proficiency in a skill (1/2 level rounded down +2=rank), and a second skill point buys expertise (level +3=rank). Class skills are those a character can become an expert in -- characters can only gain proficiency in other (non-class) skills. If you multiclass into a class with more starting skill points, you gain 2 skill points per additional level in that class until your skill points equal those in the second class (ie, if a fighter (4 points) becomes a barbarian (8 skill points), she gains 2 skill points every time she takes a level of barbarian until she has a total of 8 skill points (she gains 2 skill points a level for 2 levels). If you multiclass into a class with the same or fewer starting skill points, you gain 2 skill points once.

Any skill taken after first level can only increase by one skill point per level -- a skill can't go from nonproficient to expertise at once.

A feat (Skilled?) could grant two skill points.

Racial bonuses and the like all remain exactly the same.

Synergy bonuses would (could?) be tied to expertise -- expertise in "A" grants a +2 bonus to "B".

Every +2 increase in Intelligence score grants two skill points.

TANGENT IDEA #1: (this is pretty out there)
So then I thought, "nonproficiency", "proficiency" and "expertise" are all weapon terms -- what if this were applied to weapons? It works better with weapon groups (from Unearthed Arcana). Classes have specific weapon groups they can gain proficiency or expertise with -- fighters are unrestricted, wizards can only gain proficiency with simple weapons, etc.

I'm not sure what the benefit would be, though. My first thought was to remove the -4 nonproficiency penalty in favor of BAB -- a nonproficient weapon uses the wizard BAB, a proficient weapon uses cleric BAB, and expertise uses the fighter BAB -- but that's a pretty radical change.

TANGENT IDEA #2:
So if it applies to skills & weapons, why not armor? Characters could be nonproficient, proficient, or experts in light, medium, and heavy armor. I haven't worked out possible benefits yet, but it might facilitate making spell failure rolls a DC rather than a percentage - light armor ruins spells on a DC of (armor bonus + spell level), medium armor on a DC of (10+ armor bonus + spell level), and heavy armor on a DC of 20 + armor bonus + spell level). Nonproficiency in an armor adds 10 to the DC. The character rolls d20 + (light/medium/heavy) armor ranks + Dex modifier vs the DC.

Them's the basics,
Nell.

 

[Crothian]

What if we throw out BAB and Class defense Bonus (I bring in class defense bonus just so I can throw it out) and replace them with weapon and armor skills?

 

[Nellisir]

What if we throw out BAB and Class defense Bonus (I bring in class defense bonus just so I can throw it out) and replace them with weapon and armor skills?

That'd essentially be the result, yeah. I just don't know how badly it'd screw the fighter or enhance the wizard (to pick the two opposites). I mean, if a 10th level wizard has a +10 to hit with a dagger, is that all bad, if he still only has d4 hit points per level?

I suppose one problem might be the 1st level fighter that multiclasses into 9 levels of wizard...he could have +10 BAB in quite a few weapons. But he's still got only d4 for 9 levels.

I don't know too much about Defense bonuses, but if they accumulate at a similar rate, it seems like they should be able to be fitted in.

More thought, more thought!
Nell.

 

[Nellisir]

Languages. Nonproficiency in a language is obvious. Proficiency in a language grants the ability to speak it fluently. And expertise in a language means you can read and write it fluently, granting a synergy bonus to Forgery (is Forgery still a skill?)

Characters would need "bonus language points" to buy starting languages, maybe. Or maybe just a few more skill points, and they can buy their (formerly) bonus languages or not, as they chose.

I like this better than the old way.

 

[Crothian]

ya, its not perfect. it also would need to add in more skill points or have a second skill point section that applies to both weapons and armor only.

 

[Crothian]

Languages. Nonproficiency in a language is obvious. Proficiency in a language grants the ability to speak it fluently. And expertise in a language means you can read and write it fluently, granting a synergy bonus to Forgery (is Forgery still a skill?)

Characters would need "bonus language points" to buy starting languages, maybe. Or maybe just a few more skill points, and they can buy their (formerly) bonus languages or not, as they chose.

I like this better than the old way.

What if characters start with Int bonus x2 in language points. They can spend them to have basic understanding in lots of languages or be fluent in a few.

 

[Nellisir]

Oh, scary way-out-there idea. Spells are to wizards as weapons are to fighters, right? So what if wizards had to buy proficiency/expertise in, say spell schools? Each school had basic & expert spells, and you could cast basic spells with proficiency and expert spells with expertise. Skill level would replace caster level. This would tone down the fighter multiclassing into wizard problem, since a fighter blowing all his skill points on weapons won't have any left over to learn spell schools (except the two he'd gain for multiclassing into wizard).

Crap. Could this work?
Nell.

 

[Nellisir]

What if characters start with Int bonus x2 in language points. They can spend them to have basic understanding in lots of languages or be fluent in a few.

Yeah'd, that'd be the simplest way to do it, and simplest is usually best....

Thanks for helping me with this.

Nell.

 

[Crothian]

Oh, scary way-out-there idea. Spells are to wizards as weapons are to fighters, right? So what if wizards had to buy proficiency/expertise in, say spell schools? Each school had basic & expert spells, and you could cast basic spells with proficiency and expert spells with expertise. Skill level would replace caster level. This would tone down the fighter multiclassing into wizard problem, since a fighter blowing all his skill points on weapons won't have any left over to learn spell schools (except the two he'd gain for multiclassing into wizard).

Crap. Could this work?
Nell.

Ya, but you have to do that for all the spell casting classes. I'd actually go back to the spherss of second edition for the clerics or widen their domain lists since the magic schools don't always work for them. THe druids you could break their spells down into elemnents and possible like animal and plant, again very sphere like.

THis would actually be really cool for palainds and Rangers as they could spend points on the martial side or the spell side to control how magical oriented they are.

 

[Nyeshet]

I've been working on something a little similar to this for months now. Basically everything is based on skills and feats, and there are separate skill point pools. Magic uses a variant of Elements of Magic, Revised except that all means of using magic are skills (evoke skill, abjure/hex skill, etc) and elements are feats taken. Primary casters get 5 initial elements at first level, partial casters (bardish) gain 2 at first level, and minor casters (Rng/Pal) get one at first level - or perhaps later. I'm still working on the magic aspect of it, mostly due to the fact that I am fitting it around a world I made a while back that has 32 elements (not the 24 in EoM,R).

I divide skills into these groups: General (climb, tumble, survival, etc) with an upper limit of Lv+3, Knowledge with an upper limit of Lv+2, Language with an upper limit of Lv+2, Combat with an upper limit of Lv+1, and Magic with an upper limit of Lv+1.

Magic has already been (vaguely) described. Combat uses weapon groups (differing a bit from the UA) along with skill such as grapple, parry, and dodge - the latter two replacing AC so that combat becomes a series of opposed offense / defence rolls.

Knowledges are used more often in my campaigns, and there are quite a bit more of them, so I've organized them and arranged them in their own category. This also allows me to have scholarly wizards without allowing them to buy a large number of general skills they are not supposed to be using (and the reason I think they are given only 2 skill points in the PHB). Langauges are similar, but I grant a +8 comp bonus on the home region lang and a +4 comp bonus on the home region literacy - unless barbarian. If a second language is particularly common in that region I grant a +4 comp bonus in speaking it (and +2 comp bonus in its literacy), but the player must decide at char creation which is their primary and secondary languages.

General skills are more or less as is, except that some are consolidated (listen / spot into observation, hide/move silently into stealth, etc). Also I use exceptional skills. These are a level beyond cross class, but not exclusionary. A rogue may use 4 ranks to gain 1 point in each of four class skills, 2 points in each of two cross class skills, or one point in an exceptional skill, for example. Also, skills points from another group (say, combat) can be used in a different group (perhaps, general) for a two to one payment. So two combat skills could be used to gain one rank in a class skill. Four general skills could be used to gain one rank in a magic cross class skill. I doubt anyone would ever do it, but eight skills in, say, language, could be used to gain a point in an exceptional skill in, say, knowledge skills.

The classes need reworking, and I've yet to work on that part yet, but for a possible example here is how I would see a wizard. Note that Int only grants bonus skills that can be used in any skill group. It does not grant bonus skill points to each group. Anyway, the wizard: Gen 2, Lng 4, Knw 4, Cmb 2, Mag 4. Note that there are 10 magic skills, 26 combat skills, 28 knowledge skills, 30+ language skills, and 30 general skills.

Anyway, I'm still working on it, but I am hoping for good things from it when I am done. I'm mixing in a few other things to create an entirely new sub-system (d20 mechanics, but much else changed), including the use of 2d10 instead of d20, slightly different arrangement of saves, and a variant of Vit/Wnd instead of HP. I'll likely have to alter / replace most of the classes when I'm done with it just to rebalance everything, but I think it will turn out well.

Anyway, I hope some of what I've spoken of above is of use to you / inspires you.