Variant Wizard Spellbook

[kalgani]

How many Spellbooks do your Wizards have?
1 Spell = min. 1 Page per Level, even Cantrips.

Do you let them carry 15 Spellbooks with them?
And what about preparing in the morning from this "15" Books?

and why would a limitation destroy your game?
even with the limited number of schools you would have something around 400+ spells to learn!

 

[gamerprinter]

How many Spellbooks do your Wizards have?
1 Spell = min. 1 Page per Level, even Cantrips.

Do you let them carry 15 Spellbooks with them?
And what about preparing in the morning from this "15" Books?

and why would a limitation destroy your game?
even with the limited number of schools you would have something around 400+ spells to learn!

Many wizards in my homebrews have tattoos as spells/spellbooks, as well as carven staves as spellbooks - so the 1 per page thing doesn't apply.

Regarding actual spell books, no, my wizards don't carry around their entire spell library, rather use traveling spellbooks that contain the bulk their normal expected to be used spells. Their entire library exists in a permanent home or academy - where ever they happen to reside.

But there's no logical reason to diminish the wizard in my game, they fill their role aptly with their current spell list - no need to hamstring my wizards.

 

[Tovec]

But there's no logical reason to diminish the wizard in my game, they fill their role aptly with their current spell list - no need to hamstring my wizards.

They're more powerful than other classes in the game. I'm not saying they should be perfectly balanced with other classes but it would be good if they didn't completely outshine them in everyway.

As for my variant - they're only hamstrung if they don't want to spend money on their equipment as all other classes are forced to.

The difference is a fighter who spends 0 of his gold can't effectively survive in a fight naked. A wizard, assuming he has spent 0 of his gold and has eschew materials, can perform most of his spells and be VERY effective.

That is the imbalance I seek to address. For a long time I thought the only way to fix this issue would be severely rewriting the bulk of most spells but that is a huge load of work. My variant decreases the power straight off and is a simple tweak of the existing rules.

 

[IronWolf]

They're more powerful than other classes in the game. I'm not saying they should be perfectly balanced with other classes but it would be good if they didn't completely outshine them in everyway.

Several of us tend not to see the wizard as problematic as it is made out to be. In ideal circumstances where the wizard always has the right spell at the right time they can pretty cool and awesome.

The thing is, wizards don't always operate under ideal circumstances. They've blown through their spell slots, they don't have that spell prepared today, etc, etc.

I've played many campaigns with many wizards in my party. I almost never feel outshined on a consistent basis. They have their moments of shining as they deserve. But in groups I play with we really haven't had a problem with the wizard being overpowered. Because ideal situations for the wizard don't exist everytime.

The difference is a fighter who spends 0 of his gold can't effectively survive in a fight naked. A wizard, assuming he has spent 0 of his gold and has eschew materials, can perform most of his spells and be VERY effective.

A wizard that has spent 0 of his gold is going to potentially easier to hit, fail more saves, possibly a lower intelligence and more depending on his luck of the draw when the treasure is divided up.

 

[BriarMonkey]

...

The difference is a fighter who spends 0 of his gold can't effectively survive in a fight naked. A wizard, assuming he has spent 0 of his gold and has eschew materials, can perform most of his spells and be VERY effective.
...

I call shenanigans.

By your statement, assuming (which is huge in such an open ended statement) that they are both fighting the same foe, you say that the wizrd will win. Are we talking about 1st level, 10th level, 20th level?

Lets just look at 1st level melee combat to keep things simple. The fighter will have at least twice the hit points the wizard has; will have a better AC; and will hit harder.

The fighter can roll to hit every time hit wants to attack, if he hits he does damage. The wizard, he must make a concentration check every time he wants to cast a spell. If he fails, he's done. No damage, no other attack.

So, since the wizard has half the hit points and a lower AC, he has a choice - buff or attack. If he buffs and his foe hits, hes dead. If he attacks, flip a coin - if the foe saves, nothing.

Feh. Long and short, your solution is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

If you really think that versatility is such an issue for the wizard, why don't you think it's an issue for the cleric? They already know every spell in the book, they are limited by their spells per day. Oh, and look at that, so are wizards...

 

[gamerprinter]

They're more powerful than other classes in the game. I'm not saying they should be perfectly balanced with other classes but it would be good if they didn't completely outshine them in everyway.

As for my variant - they're only hamstrung if they don't want to spend money on their equipment as all other classes are forced to.

The difference is a fighter who spends 0 of his gold can't effectively survive in a fight naked. A wizard, assuming he has spent 0 of his gold and has eschew materials, can perform most of his spells and be VERY effective.

That is the imbalance I seek to address. For a long time I thought the only way to fix this issue would be severely rewriting the bulk of most spells but that is a huge load of work. My variant decreases the power straight off and is a simple tweak of the existing rules.

That's fine, all I'm saying is that wizards while powerful, yes, never outshine the other characters in our games - there are more dead wizard PCs in the wake of our gaming sessions than any other class type. None of my current gamers ever feel outshined by the wizard. It just doesn't happen. So in my case, weakening the wizards any more, means more dead wizards - and we don't want that.

 

[Tovec]

If you really think that versatility is such an issue for the wizard, why don't you think it's an issue for the cleric? They already know every spell in the book, they are limited by their spells per day. Oh, and look at that, so are wizards...

I do have changes for the cleric and druid classes as well, if this proposed rule went into effect for the wizard. At the time I first posted here I had few good ideas but with help I have come up with systems that might work to reduce clerics and druids too. I DO think clerics are overly strong because they know all spells, doubly so in the wake of my proposed wizard variant.

Oh, and as far as your 1st, 10th and 20th thing. Yes a fighter will have more HP. But at each of those levels, as long as the wizard has spells in his head, he'll be able to incapacitate the enemy. Yes the enemy might get a save (at level 1, less so at 10 and 20) but if they are both buck naked those extra HP aren't going to last long but the sleep spell might be enough to kick the enemy to death or run away.

At any level, in similar circumstances, the wizard has more options and they are typically stronger than those allotted to non-casters. Yes they have to know what to expect and prepare for it. But as others have pointed out when they play wizards that they'll have several lists depending on what they expect. Combine that with simple divination spells to tell them what to expect and they can get silly quickly.

I'm happy for everyone who haven't had issues with casters outshining non-casters but that hasn't been my experience. All I want is to reduce the caster's power so that they don't automatically change the dynamic and power structure of a game. As it is the best caster killer is a caster, the best melee killer is a caster, the best nearly anything killer is a caster. How is that fair?

 

[master arminas]

Okay. A 1st level Wizard gets all core 0-level spells in his spell book for free: that takes up 20 pages (in a 100-page book). Plus, he can select 3 1st-level spells plus 1 additional spell per point of Intelligence modifier (which is a maximum of 20 for an elf, human, half-orc, or half-elf Wizard). Let's say he is a 20 Intelligence Elf Wizard, so he has 8 1st-level spell, for 28 pages.

At each additional level of experience, the Wizard gets TWO (2) free spells of any level that he can cast to add to his book.

That means (assuming he always picks his highest level spells), he will have used 30 pages at 2nd level, 34 pages at 3rd level, 38 pages at 4th level, 44 pages at 5th level, 50 pages at 6th level, 58 pages at 7th level, 66 pages at 8th level, 76 pages at 9th level, 86 pages at 10th level, and 98 pages at 11th level.

Now he has to purchase a second spell-book. 12 pages at 12th level, 26 pages at 13th level, 40 pages at 14th level, 56 pages at 15th level, 72 pages at 16th level, and 90 pages at 17th level. He could add one of free spells at 18th level for 99 pages. And then it is on to Book Three.

9 pages at 18th level, 27 pages at 19th level, and finally 45 pages at 20th level.

He has spent 30 gp and is carrying three 3 lb spell books. Unfair! (you say).

He knows four (4) spells of every level 2nd-9th, plus 10 1st-level and 20 0-level. Now, if he wants to add new spells to his spell book, he has to pay to scribe these spells.

It costs 5 gp for a single 0-level spell, 10 gp for a single 1st-level spell, 40 gp for a single 2nd-level spell, 90 gp for a single 3rd-level spell, 160 gp for a single 4th-level spell, 250 gp for a single 5th-level spell, 360 gp for a single 6th-level spell, 490 gp for a single 7th-level spell, 640 gp for a single 8th-level spell, and 810 gp for a single 9th-level spell.

Not exactly chump change, eh?

But wait! How is the Wizard finding those spells? As DM, you control the treasure; if you don't want him to get spells on the cheap, then don't put arcane scrolls in the treasure. Now he has to buy those scrolls, and that get's expensive really fast.

Scrolls of 0-level cost 12 and a half gp, 1st-level scrolls cost 25 gp, 2nd-level scrolls cost 150 gp, 3rd-level scrolls cost 375 gp, 4th-level scrolls cost 700 gp, 5th-level scrolls cost 1,125 gp, 6th-level scrolls cost 1,650 gp, 7th-level scrolls cost 2,275 gp, 8th-level scrolls cost 3,000 gp, and 9th-level scrolls cost 3,825 gp. For one spell.

Or he can conduct independent research, taking a week for a single spell and costing 1,000 gp per spell level! GAH!

But wait! He can copy spells from another caster's book. Yes, yes, he can. If you as DM let him find a wizard willing to share his knowledge of the secrets of power. Most aren't, unless they are getting something very tangible and very useful in return. He could kill spellcasters and try to use their books, but Wizards have long been known in this genre to trap and ward their spellbooks--and whose to say they didn't deliberately put a spell in there designed to backfire on a thief? Hmmmmm? Why that would be you as the DM, wouldn't it?

Now, having said all of that, the Wizard could avoid the cost of scribing and buying new spellbooks (and lugging a ton of spellbooks around) by purchasing a Blessed Book for 12,500 gp (no scribing cost and it has 1,000 pages--or equal to ten standard spellbooks).

And I think you are forgetting, Wizards need to have a back-up book at their disposal, in case their travelling book gets sundered or stolen or confiscated. They only get two free spells to scribe per level, so they are paying the full scribing costs for that backup. Remember too, that it takes 1 hour per spell level to scribe a single spell into a book (regular or backup or Blessed). Time is not kind of Wizards who want to add spells and craft.

If you look at all of this, I think you might come to realize that Wizards are already paying out the wazoo for additional spells in their books. If you are using the rules that are already there and in print.

Master Arminas

 

[Tovec]

@ Master Arminas If you were talking to me then please read the following. If you were talking to someone else then disregard.

Okay. A 1st level Fighter gets a club for free. Plus, he can select a quarterstaff and sling for free. He gains no other weapons for free, regardless of high strength modifier. Let's say he is a 20 Strength Human Fighter.

At each additional level of experience, the Fighter gets NONE (0) free weapons of any level that he can cast to add to his inventory.

That means (assuming he wants to pay 0 for his items), he will have 3 weapons (no ammunition). And he is still not wearing anything to protect himself other than simple clothes. Whereas the wizard will have 30 pages of spells at 2nd level, 34 pages at 3rd level, 38 pages at 4th level, 44 pages at 5th level, 50 pages at 6th level, 58 pages at 7th level, 66 pages at 8th level, 76 pages at 9th level, 86 pages at 10th level, and 98 pages at 11th level. (Note not giving the rest of the pages with the whopping 3 spellbooks the wizard must buy by 20th level.)

The Fighter has spent 0 gp and is carrying 3 lbs for the club, 4 lbs for the quarterstaff, a sling (no bullets). Twice the weight of the wizard. Unfair! (I say).

The Fighter knows how to use all kinds of weapons but he gets none for free simply for leveling. Now, if he wants to add new weapons to his inventory, he has to pay to buy and enchant them.

It costs at minimum 1 gp and up to 100 for a single martial weapon! (Do not feel it necessary to give every single weapon but I can come back and edit my post if you feel it would help.)

Not exactly chump change, eh?

But wait! How is the Fighter finding those weapons? As DM, you control the treasure; if you don't want him to get weapons on the cheap, then don't put martial weapons in the treasure. Now he has to buy those weapons, and that get's expensive really fast.

Magic Weapons of a +1 bonus cost 2000 gp PLUS the base weapon. Do no forget masterwork! This price is per weapon! (Once again, did not feel necessary to give full entry but can if it would help.)

Or he can conduct independent research, taking a week for a single spell and costing 1,000 gp per spell level! GAH! Oh wait, no he can't. He is a fighter and gains no such ability. My mistake.

But wait! He can take weapons from another Fighter's inventory. Yes, yes, he can. If you as DM let him find a Fighter willing to share his weapons of war. Most aren't, unless they are getting something very tangible and very useful in return. He could kill Fighters and try to use their inventory.

And I think you are forgetting, Fighters need to have a back-up inventory at their disposal, in case their traveling inventory gets sundered or stolen or confiscated. They only get three free weapons to use ever, so they are paying the full purchase costs for that backup. Remember too, that it takes time and availability to find and purchase weapons to add into an inventory. Time is not kind to Fighters who want to add weapons and train.

If you look at all of this, I think you might come to realize that Fighters are already paying out the wazoo for additional weapons in their inventory. If you are using the rules that are already there and in print.

Don't forget, that after this entire ordeal with weapons they still have to find armor!

Tovec

 

[master arminas]

Amusing.

[Clap, Clap, Clap]

So, why don't we take a look at the monk.

Oh no, he doesn't have to buy weapons or armor! How dare those designers make a class that gets Improved Unarmed Strike for free at 1st level, and then increases in damage to more than a two-handed sword! And heavens forbid, he gets another feat at 1st level (Stunning Fist) that normal characters can qualify for until they at eighth level! Eighth level! Even higher for those people with medium or low BAB.

But he isn't done! Oh no, the overpowered monk who doesn't have to spend any gold on anything gets a THIRD bonus feat, plus the one or two every character get at 1st level!

Oh, that poor, poor fighter who only has feats as his schtik.

And to top it off, the monk doesn't need armor, because he gets to add his Wisdom and Dexterity Modifier to his AC, while everyone else just gets Dexterity. He doesn't even lose his Wisdom mod when he is flat-footed! AND he gets more bonuses as he goes up in levels.

And he never, ever had to spend a single copper. That must be overpowered.


Well, now that I have finished with that little rant, characters in Pathfinder are expected to gain in wealth as they advance and they are expected to spend that wealth outfitting themselves with better items, weapons, armor, and miscellaneous gear throughout their entire adventuring career. Heaven forbid that the Wizard gets a few of the basic tools of his trade (spells) for free. No other class gets that! Except the Monk. And the Sorcerer. And the Bard. And the Cleric. And the Druid.

Wealth by level guidelines were playtested and are considered to be appropriate, along with the Wizard gaining those two free spells at each of his levels. It is balanced, even if individual spells in specific circumstances are not (which you as DM are free to say don't exist in your campaign).

But having said all of this, if it is your campaign do what you want. Rule 0. Play the game your way. But do not try and convince the rest of us that something is a problem because you can't deal with and the rest of us can.

Master Arminas