Various questions on Paladin equipment...

[Roland Delacroix]

Well, let's see here...

Summoning Prestige Domain
Celerity Prestige Domain

Summoning is at the lower end of the spell spectrum as is, this domain makes them almost worthwhile spells. Didn't look at the PrCs you mentioned, but i didnt find any of them particularlly impressive.

Celerity is overrated. Lets say a typical cleric takes it. I've never seen a cleric in Light armor, so the movement bonus is negated. The Init bonus is nice, its worth less than half what Time domain gives, a single feat Imp Init. The other good ability, Enhancement +2 Dex, is pretty good. However say a mobility cleric takes Celerity domain. Light armor, the movement is nice, again the Init, but no PC based on mobility will NOT have a +2 or better Dex Enhancement item by then. Likely theyll have a +4, negating that ability.

 

[RogueJK]

Celerity is overrated. Lets say a typical cleric takes it. I've never seen a cleric in Light armor, so the movement bonus is negated. The Init bonus is nice, its worth less than half what Time domain gives, a single feat Imp Init. The other good ability, Enhancement +2 Dex, is pretty good.

Only two deities grant access to the Time domain, one of which can only be worshipped by elves. And not all DMs allow FR content.

The Dexterity bonus also adds to initiative. So the Celerity domain gives you +3 to initiative. Plus, the initiative bonus from Celerity stacks with Improved Initiative. So take both Time and Celerity, and get a total of +7 to initiative.

Celerity and Time also give you Haste and Mass Haste as domain spells. A cleric with the Travel and Trickery domains, who takes 1 level of Contemplative and chooses the Celerity Prestige Domain is practically a wizard, in some respects. He can Fly, Haste himself and others, Teleport, cast Invisibility, use Dimension Door, and cast Time Stop. This is in addition to all of the normal cleric spells. It's not that the domain is overpowered for every character. But it can be easily abused to get lots of extra power.

As for those 2 PrCs...
The Sacred Exorcist gets everything a normal cleric gets, and then some. He continues with full spellcasting progression, as well as full Turning progression. The BAB progression is the same, as is the Will save progression. So a cleric gives up a good Fortitude save progression in exchange for a ton of new abilities, including a Prestige Domain, 3 Extra Turning feats, and a permanent Consecrate spell. The 3 free Extra Turning feats are even more powerful when combined with Divine feats, which use up turning attempts.

The Templar, on the other hand, isn't overpowered (most of the time), but it is front-loaded. Just one level gets you Weapon Specialization and Mettle, which are two very nice abilities. IIRC, it's the only Prestige Class that gets Mettle. And Mettle can be easily abused when combined with someone who has Evasion and high overall saves (like a Monk, a Paladin/Rogue, or a Cleric/Monk or Cleric/Rogue with the Mysticisim Prestige Domain).

Take a Templar of Illmater, for example. You now have a Monk who has both Evasion and Mettle, Weapon Specialization (unarmed), Damage Reduction, and spells. Plus, after they are done with the Templar levels, they can get even more power through the Sacred Fist PrC.

And the Contemplative is front-loaded, too. Most of the people take it for just one or two levels, in order to get a Prestige Domain.

But despite how it seems... I like DotF. I was merely trying to point out to reapersaurus how lots of other things, besides the Hospitaler and Armor of Speed, can be unbalancing. Hey, I could probably do the same thing for every other book out there.

 

[reapersaurus]

RogueJK : I did not say you couldn't MAKE a character that was powerful with DotF stuff.

I'm saying that even those examples of yours are not good examples, in my opinion.

There is not one Prestige Domain in DotF that is unbalancing.

Let's look at the word "unbalancing":
unbalancing is when a PC can attain something that makes the campaign make radical changes just to accomodate its presence.
Unless changes are made, the unbalancing ability takes over and dominates the scenes.

NOTHING in DotF can do that, which a simple Improved Invisibility spell does.

This is due to the fact that the DM is in charge of all the things you mentioned.

Not Arms of Nyr (PC's can't just rip their own arms off and replace them to make them faster, stronger, and harder to hit - this isn't Shadowrun)
Not Templar - ya, it's frontloaded, but even if a PC is a Templar, there's no campaign-altering change.
Not any prestige domain : how the hell are they going to get a prestige domain other than Exorcist?
The DM is in charge of allowing entry into any of the very-restrictive PrC's that grant a prestige domain.

If you're requirement is that the classbooks don't add anything that can be manufactured to be useful, or powerful, in them than I don't understand the purpose you want the classbooks to serve.

 

[reapersaurus]

BTW:
I'd like to see how you feel about every single PrC that grants +1 level of spellcaster ability.

How about the cheese from Tome and Blood?
WAY more unbalancing.
How bout Persistent Spell?
THAT comepletely re-creates the whole magic system of 3E, for god's sake...

 

[hong]

The DM is in charge of allowing entry into any of the very-restrictive PrC's that grant a prestige domain.

An explicit appeal to DM fiat is a rather inadequate reply when it comes to issues of balance, IMO. What you're in effect saying is that a PrC isn't unbalancing if nobody takes it. You might as well also say that improved invisibility (your example) isn't unbalanced because the DM is also free to modify spell lists to suit the campaign.

 

[RogueJK]

Like I said before, I don't have a problem with most things that are in Dotf, or any of the classbooks, even classes that give total spellcasting progression. I was merely trying to continue the conversation.

I must admit that I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. You meant "unbalanced" as "campaign-breaking" or "dominating". I took it to mean "overpowered when compared to other similar things". The various subjective terms, such as "overpowered", "unbalanced", "shafted", "munchkin", etc. are thrown around too frequently on these boards, each time with a slightly different meaning to that certain poster. Oh, well. Chalk it up to miscommunication.

I was just trying to point out how many things can be abused easily; some more easily than others. The same is true about the other various books. That doesn't mean that I think everything needs to be changed, or that everything is overpowered. IMO, just about anything can be abused in some way, and it's up to the individual DMs to prevent that from happening. And yes, most of the truly powerful stuff can be easily regulated by a good DM.

 

[reapersaurus]

An explicit appeal to DM fiat is a rather inadequate reply when it comes to issues of balance, IMO. What you're in effect saying is that a PrC isn't unbalancing if nobody takes it. You might as well also say that improved invisibility (your example) isn't unbalanced because the DM is also free to modify spell lists to suit the campaign.

well, removing a spell would be absolutely taboo for most people on these boards.

It also would be changing the default game system. *gasp*

Not allowing a ridiculous character-concept like someone who has direct contact with their diety is another thing entirely. (i.e. the Contemplative @ 11th level - one of the only ways to get the prestige domains people object to)

You are objecting to prestige domains that really can't be taken until 11th level : the same time the cleric is throwing around 6th level spells.

I don't see that as unbalancing, OR overpowered.

A major portion of the game to me is tweaking as much possible power out of a given set of rules.
DotF does NOT give much to work with.
Divine Might, Armor of Command, and Speed are about the only things that allow for good combos.
Armor of Speed is obviously screwed up, and I'm sure at some point Armor of Command will be erratted to only help skill checks, and Divine Might will be erratted to only apply to melee weapons.

 

[hong]

well, removing a spell would be absolutely taboo for most people on these boards.

That's their problem.

Personally, I'm quite willing to, say, throw out all 9th level spells if that would help create the feel I'm after. Everything exists at the whim of the DM, in the end....

Not allowing a ridiculous character-concept like someone who has direct contact with their diety is another thing entirely. (i.e. the Contemplative @ 11th level - one of the only ways to get the prestige domains people object to)

You are objecting to prestige domains that really can't be taken until 11th level : the same time the cleric is throwing around 6th level spells.

Hmm. First, it appears that you accept that prestige domains like Celerity tend to be more powerful than their regular counterparts. Are you now saying that they'e okay because they're only available at high levels? Previously, however, you've said you didn't like the exponential power curve for spellcasting classes, which contrasted with the linear power curve for the rest. Allowing high-powered domains at high levels does nothing to fix that; if anything, it exacerbates it.

Also, you don't like PrCs that give +1 caster level at every level. However, many of the ones in DotF are like this: contemplative, sacred exorcist, inquisitor, oracle. Furthermore, the consensus seems to be that the cleric is already the most powerful base class (assuming you don't let the other players bully you into being a healing battery). This would seem to be a mark against these PrCs.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

That's their problem.

Personally, I'm quite willing to, say, throw out all 9th level spells if that would help create the feel I'm after. Everything exists at the whim of the DM, in the end....
[/B]

False. Everything exists at the whim of the players. Megolomaniac DMs who think they have ultimate power often forget that PCs have the ultimate veto. They leave.

 

[Privateer]

And Now a Word From an Outside Observer...

Mates, this thread is getting a little bit, um, sticky. Let's keep it a bit more civil... I get the feeling this thread could get into a mud-throwing fight.

He he, saying that makes me feel like Pkitty!