D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[dave2008]

It isn't clear to me that the RAW allow a reaction to be used in response to a trigger that the user does not know exists, nor that it confers upon the user the ability to automatically know that it exists. It's not just the how and why that's up to the DM. It's also the if.

Then I can't help you. The RAW is clear, 3 people who are more knowledgeable than me (though I did confirm with my partner who is an English professor) posted the sentence diagram regarding what the RAW states. If you can't except that, I can't help.

 

[Charlaquin]

The RAW is clear. Not sure what your hung up on. At least 3 people in this thread have diagrammed the sentence to explain the RAW language.

For the fourth time, I do not dispute that seeing a creature, and that creature casting a spell fulfill the conditions for Dread Counterspell. I dispute that Vecna would be able to use it if he doesn’t know the conditions for using it have been met.

 

[dave2008]

RAW is clear on what the conditions are for use of the ability, not on how or if he knows he can use the ability.

The knowing is not relevant to the RAW, just to some people.

 

[dave2008]

For the fourth time, I do not dispute that seeing a creature, and that creature casting a spell fulfill the conditions for Dread Counterspell.

Got it!

I dispute that Vecna would be able to use it if he doesn’t know the conditions for using it have been met.

But were in the RAW of the ability does it suggest this is a requirement. This seems to be baggage you are bringing to the ability.

 

[Charlaquin]

Just asking as we are going off the rails here, as usual, and I was wondering the OP was actually satisfied or not.

While the OP was @DND_Reborn, they didn’t seem particularly interested in the question, and only started the thread so that those of us who were could continue the conversation without detracting from the Vecna battle sim thread where it first came up. It was @Flamestrike and I who were really trying to get to the bottom of what the RAI is here, and I would say I at least have not been satisfied in that yet.

 

[dave2008]

Not if he isn’t aware of it.

If I stub my toe in a crack in the concrete sidewalk and curse, it is most definitely because I was unaware of the crack. The crack is like a person casting a spell in this analogy.

 

[dave2008]

While the OP was @DND_Reborn, they didn’t seem particularly interested in the question, and only started the thread so that those of us who were could continue the conversation without detracting from the Vecna battle sim thread where it first came up. It was @Flamestrike and I who were really trying to get to the bottom of what the RAI is here, and I would say I at least have not been satisfied in that yet.

I was curious because they specifically challenged me to diagram the sentence structure, imply that they had the same meaning. Now that 3 people have said otherwise I was wondering if they accepted it or not.

 

[MarkB]

If I stub my toe in a crack in the concrete sidewalk and curse, it is most definitely because I was unaware of the crack. The crack is like a person casting a spell in this analogy.

Which means that, in this analogy, you cannot choose not to react.

 

[Parmandur]

For the fourth time, I do not dispute that seeing a creature, and that creature casting a spell fulfill the conditions for Dread Counterspell. I dispute that Vecna would be able to use it if he doesn’t know the conditions for using it have been met.

There is no indication in the text that there is a knowledge restriction on the action, and thus that he can always use it when the condition is met...period.

After that is clear, which it is in the RAW that I can see, plausible explanations of such an unusual power can be simply multiplied. The most likely set of explanations is thst he always knows, and there are many ways to play that.

 

[dave2008]

It isn't clear to me that the RAW allow a reaction to be used in response to a trigger that the user does not know exists, nor that it confers upon the user the ability to automatically know that it exists. It's not just the how and why that's up to the DM. It's also the if.

Like I said, I can't help you.