Vehicles, Steeds, and Bears -oh my! (fragile vehicles and powerful PCs mix poorly)

[Argyle King]

Over the years, I've had a lot of fun with D&D. I've had my issues with each version as well, but -overall- I have had a lot of fun. However, one area where I've always struggled has been when vehicles become involved in combat.

In my head, I have many cool scenes painted in which a BBEG charges into battle on a war chariot, or perhaps two ships-of-the-line trade cannon fire, or a knight valiantly rides his faithful steed during a charge against a draconic foe. Unfortunately, none of those scenes seem to play out particularly well when I'm playing D&D. In the case of the chariot, even a low end attack from a PC will often destroy it; even an entire ship is scarcely a match for a 3rd edition spell or a 4th Edition power, and steeds never quite seem to keep up with the progress of the PCs or the rest of the game.

I don't want to ban a player from being able to target said things. After all, it does seem entirely reasonable to target a foe's tools of war -including vehicles. That should be a valid tactic, and it should be one that works. My problem isn't that works as a tactic, but that it works too well; so well that I believe it hurts the dramatic effect of involving such things. How do you fix this?

The editions I'm most familiar with are 3rd Edition and 4th Edition. I've also played Pathfinder. None seem to handle this aspect of adventure in a manner which I've found satisfactory. I have zero experience with 2nd Edition D&D beyond browsing some of the books. I've dabbled in 1st, but not nearly enough to have tried similar scenes nor know how they play out.

Is this a problem unique to my table?

Is it unique to certain editions of D&D?

What are some solutions you've used (if you've had the problem)?

Is there any word on how 5th Edition would work in this regard?

...thoughts in general?

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

I share a similar unease about how vehicles/mounts get trashed by mid/high (even some low) level players. I have an idea, but I haven't playtested it so how well it will work is open to a lot of testing/debate.

Basically, I suggest treating the vehicle not as just a vehicle, but as a creature. Players can attack it, but until they do enough damage to it to affect it as they would a creature of that level, tough luck.

The following are 4th Edition examples:

A smallish ship is actually an 8th level elite, with related defences and hit points. The crew represents a portion of the vessel's hit points, and when bloodied more and more crew members are hurt/disabled until the ship is broken/sinks. This keeps the players from just fireballing the sails, as a single fireball isn't enough to defeat an 8th level elite, but helps widdle the ship down.

On the other hand, once you're high enough level, you *can* take out a single viking longboat by yourself... you're that badass.

A large, ocean going warship may be a 16th level elite.

The 'crew' doesn't have stats, but are part of the hit points of the vessel itself. Heroes and other 'named' NPCs are not part of the vessel and are treated as separate entities, so you have a choice: you can attack the ship OR you can attack the dramatically important people on the ship. (Area attacks might get both).


For a chariot, it (the horses, the framework, the box), is a creature level approriate to the encounter. You can't attack the 2nd level horse that's pulling the chariot, but you can attack the 7th level chariot... or the 9th level warlord who is riding it. I would make the chariot a few levels lower than the rider, so there's a reason why it would be beneficial to attack the ride as opposed to the rider.

Then, give the chariot a number of powers it can use that are thematically appropriate (a trample attack, a reaction to allow anyone riding it to increase their defences by +2 because of its better dodging ability, a sudden burst of speed, etc). If the players want to dump the warlord from his tricked-out wheels, it's not a simple case of "I full power attack the horse", but requires them to work at it. And if they succeed, the warlord now has lost those extras powers his sweet ride provided him.

It is very gamist, since why is the horse a 2nd level creature, but once hooked up to a chariot it's now a 7th level thing with 50 more hit points and better defences??? But I feel it might be a necessary 'cheat' in order for these things to have the dramatic gravity you seem to be striving for.

 

[Derren]

That must be a mighty powerful spell when it can destroy a Ship of the Line in one hit.
As for your problem, unless you play something like E6 where the huge damage and HP bloat of the PCs are capped there is hardly anything you can do unless you vastly increase the HP and power of most vehicles and mounts.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

You're right; I think that D&D has just never had a vehicle and mount system that was fully fleshed out. Perhaps that's a function of evolving from underground adventuring and man-on-man wargames versus evolving from vehicle-based games.

 

[pemerton]

Is this a problem unique to my table?

Is it unique to certain editions of D&D?

I think the answer to both questions is "no" - for instance, when you look at Burning Wheel's or Rolemaster's mounted combat rules, they're pretty complex and clunky.

I think it's a function of any RPG that treats equipment as something distinct from the PC him-/herself, and therefore that treats the horse/chariot/ship (which is ultimately a piece of equipment, on this model) as a distinct mechanical element that can be targetted independently from the PC.

What might an alternative approach look like? Consider Marvel Heroic Roleplaying - a piece of equipment, including a mount or a vehicle or a weapon, is just another attribute that the player can deploy in playing his/her PC, and the mechanics of targetting that attribute are no different from targetting any other character attribute - so, in general, a PC is no more vulnerable to having his/her horse shot from under her than to having his/her armour destroyed, or being knocked unconscious, or being driven mad with grief.

I really like [MENTION=28201]Loincloth of Armour[/MENTION]'s ideas in the post above, which look to me like a way of making this more abstract approach work in 4e.

 

[delericho]

I think it's a function of any RPG that treats equipment as something distinct from the PC him-/herself, and therefore that treats the horse/chariot/ship (which is ultimately a piece of equipment, on this model) as a distinct mechanical element that can be targetted independently from the PC.

Yep, I'm inclined to agree that this is the problem. It would probably be better to consider a character and his mount/vehicle as a single entity (although the rules for doing so may prove tricky to implement). This is especially important if the vehicle is such that the PC is unable to function without it.

Of course, it would also help if D&D (all editions) recognised that high-level PCs need equivalently high-level vehicles and mounts for their use - recent editions seem to be okay in low- to mid-levels, but offer nothing above a certain point.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Take a look at the Wild Cohort feat for 3rd Edition.

There are actually "mount companions" in 4e, but probably hidden in Dragon Magazine somewhere. (Note that 4th Edition rules ensure your mounts aren't combative, which I like. DMs are reluctant to essentially add a new fighter to the team because someone wants to ride a horse.)

 

[delericho]

(Note that 4th Edition rules ensure your mounts aren't combative, which I like. DMs are reluctant to essentially add a new fighter to the team because someone wants to ride a horse.)

Surely the problem with that is that a knight on a warhorse is a vastly more effective combatant than the same knight without the horse?

 

[I'm A Banana]

How do you fix this?

It's mostly an issue of appropriate numbers. And, interestingly, something that a quality like bounded accuracy is likely to fix down the line.

In 4e, your mounts or vehicles should have creature stats (even if they have no attacks) at a level equal to the level of the challenge. So, if your adventurers are 23rd level, a ship that you hope to be a challenge for them to overcome should have the defenses and HP of a 23rd level monster.

3e's a little tougher to gauge, but the same rule-of-thumb applies. Make sure in 3e to give it saving throws commensurate with it's level to, so you don't just have it disintegrated.

4e gives you the option of treating the mounts and vehicles as minions, too, if you want the strategy to make a bit more sense: they may be tough to hit, but hit that horse once, and the knight will be on foot. You might make a bigger structure (like a ship) have every 1-square section serve as a minion, defense-wise, to give a sort of "destructible terrain" feel to it.

Et viola! Vehicles and mounts that aren't just push-overs.

 

[Celebrim]

Over the years, I've had a lot of fun with D&D. I've had my issues with each version as well, but -overall- I have had a lot of fun. However, one area where I've always struggled has been when vehicles become involved in combat.

In my head, I have many cool scenes painted in which a BBEG charges into battle on a war chariot, or perhaps two ships-of-the-line trade cannon fire, or a knight valiantly rides his faithful steed during a charge against a draconic foe. Unfortunately, none of those scenes seem to play out particularly well when I'm playing D&D.

That's odd. I haven't had that problem, or at least not to the extent that you have had. I've had the campaign with the two ships of the line trading cannon fire, and it pretty much works.

In the case of the chariot, even a low end attack from a PC will often destroy it;

Well, that's possible I suppose. Still a chariot takes 35 damage or more to destroy it. At the level where the PC's are facing a normal warlord in his chariot, that's 35 damage not inflicted on the warlord. At a level where inflicting 35 damage on a chariot is trivial, why would you suppose the warlord has a normal chariot instead of one magically hardened, with magically keen blades on the wheels and perhaps leaving trails of fire (as a wall of fire spell), in its wake?

even an entire ship is scarcely a match for a 3rd edition spell or a 4th Edition power

A ship-of-the-line? You mean a trans-collosal moving fortress bristling with weapons that overcome AC having literally thousands if not tens of thousand of hit points and a hardness around 20 is scarcely a match for a 3rd edition spell? Even when firing out cannon? Even with hundreds of marines in its fighting tops? Do you have any idea how much damage the broadside of an SOL can inflict on an individual character? If you go straight by the rules its usually a touch attack (in 1e against AC 10), and the average damage if everything hits is usually around 800 h.p.

Ok, backing up, I have played this campaign and magic that can start fires (which most 3e fire spells can't) can be a problem. But, we almost immediately realized that any one building something as expensive a SOL in a fantasy setting would include as a moderate additional cost sails and decks modestl magical protection from fire. Ditto with things like 'warp wood', although that one is also offset by the fact that a ship with 500 crewmembers has pretty impressive damage control.

and steeds never quite seem to keep up with the progress of the PCs or the rest of the game.

That can be a problem, though 3e at least specifically addresses it. In earlier editions, it was addressed by things like having a Gold Dragon as a steed (see Dragonlance).

My problem isn't that works as a tactic, but that it works too well; so well that I believe it hurts the dramatic effect of involving such things. How do you fix this?

By providing reasonably good statistics for normal vehicles. A SOL weighs like 1500 tons. It's 160 feet long, nearly that tall, and its protected by an armor belt of interlocking oak planks that is 2' thick and can bounce cannon balls. It's of a scale that transcends the scale most D&D operates in. It's a floating castle. It doesn't have mere hundreds of hit points. A PC might can knock a hole in it, because PC's can do that sorts of things. But it's built to survive having holes knocked in it. The crew knows how to handle things like that. It's got pumps for removing water quickly, carpenters for patching holes, and the crew knows how to plug a hole by lowering temporary patches. Can a group of high level characters storm a castle on their own? Sure. But off all the things in D&D I've ever dealt with, a SOL is pretty high on the list of totally ganks highish level PC's in a head on assualt if you use rules as written. Invisibility for the win maybe, but a broadside of cannon will seriously mess up anything.

Maybe you could explain to me exactly what rules issues you are having? I've glanced at the pathfinder vehicle stats and they seem pretty reasonable, but granted the biggest ships in thier rules are about a tenth the weight and size of a third rate SOL (and consequently, the hit points), much less one of the big 100 gunners.

The only problem we've had are the general problems that relate to the question, "Are castles still relevant in a world with magic?" The answer is, "Yes, if you assume the builders know about magic and are prepared to deal with it."