Vexing Psionics Handbook Question

[green slime]

This sounds a bit like psychofeedback, which is nearly universally hated on the WotC Psionics Forum. Virtually every DM nerfs it.

Yes, well I think this is one of those broken "loopholes" I obliquely refered to in my first post. I do believe there is a WotC recommended fix for this in the FAQ. I could be wrong though, I have my own fix.

Mind Blast has the save DC of a 4th-level power (and quite simply one of the best 5th-level psionic powers out there), and you can pull it off at 4th-level. I still have a problem with this.

(In fact, Bruce Cordell nerfed it somewhat in Mindscapes. It's still 5th-level, but it doesn't stun the opponent as long, and it no longer penetrates PR IIRC.)

Yes, indeed. But it so dependant on there not being another encounter (at least at that low a level. I have no qualms about teaching players the healthy virtue of caution should they decide to be reckless. Recklessness has cost many a player their character.

I'm not saying it isn't powerful. I just don't have a problem with a player being powerful once in a while. It is when powers and abilities are abused ruining the fun for other players in the game, that I get my DM-rile up and squish the violaters with a little reminder that their toys are not infallible. Should it prove necessary, I'll reel it in, but after playing with my group for ...15 years, I know who I can trust to be reasonable and not munchkin everything, and those who like to stretch the limits.

I think the design of the egoist needs another thread
Besides, Mind Blasting sounds quite telepathic to me. There's no reason to turn every psion into a telepath.

The original poster's character was "an egoist with 20 strength" I believe...

IHowever I'm surprised that you mentioned a psionic monster's power point usage (or lack of usage) as a problem. A psionic monster still has to waste a standard action using an attack mode (except Mind Blast, which is actually useful). [Sure, it hoses the player character, but it almost never actually knocks them right out or prevents them from manifesting a psionic power immediately afterwards. It's bad tactics, and a waste of a standard action.] The psionic being has no way of determing it's opponent's power point score (indeed, it usually can't determine who is psionic and who isn't), and it would be better off using Brain Lock, Mass Concussion or whatever other free powers it has, physical attacks (also free), or whatever other (useful) options it has (usually free).

The only exception is the brain mole, whose sole purpose is to hose psionic opponents (if they can figure out who is psionic, since Detect Psionics takes three rounds to do anything).

Even unintelligent creatures are governed by natural selection. An udoroot that constantly used an attack mode is going to suffer, whereas one that uses biocurrent is actually going to do something useful in combat and enjoy crispy fried humans in it's fertilizer.

Frankly, I think a DM who is using an attack mode (except Mind Blast) is engaging in meta-gaming and unfairly targeting the player character while using bad tactics - or they're as bad at math as I am, and they're still using bad tactics.

While all of your comments are true, I believe in a fashion that psionic combat, SHOULD work (OK it doesn't, that's bad design, not the fault of the udoplant).

Now IF it worked, the monsters should have the same disadvantages as players when it comes to powers: It SHOULD cost precious power points to erect a defense against a players Mind Blast (or what ever he chooses to use). The player SHOULD be able to whittle at a creature's defenses, and its power points, REDUCING its ability to sustain attacks.

It is a pet peeve of mine so sorry about the shouting, I'll try and calm down...

*breathes deeply*

*one...
*two...
*three...
*four...
*five...
*six...

OK picture this.

A group of psions (6) surprise three of mindflayers.

They all mindblast their foes.

To NO EFFECT!!!!

Because the mind flayers manifest their defenses FOR FREE!!!!

Now six psions must activate three defenses EACH against the mindflayers! At a large cost to their pool of power points!

*one...

*two...

*three...

*breathe IN.... Breathe OUT...

Walk unawares into a large field of Udoroots, manifest levitate, and see how many rounds it takes to reach 0 Strength...

Given twenty udoroots, you loose at least 20 power points per round (Empty mind), irrespective of whether you are 15th level or 5th. Given 14 Strength (just an assumption about an average psion) you can only afford to fail fewer than 9 saves. (not that you are likely to fail, but the loss of 20 points in a single round is quite a chunk out of any psions daily dose.

(given 20 5th level fighters against 1 15th level fighter, what would you expect the result to be, even giving away a surprise round? If he lost one 6th of his Hit points, I'd be surprised)

Psionic attack modes bypass PR, can't be blocked by Protection from Elements, and REQUIRE you to put up a defense against each attack. One on one they are hopeless. En masse they are a psion's nightmare.

They fail against NPC psions, and are a waste of time against monsters. They are merely a tool for DMs to overwhelm cocky psions with a shipload of low CR threats.

When it comes to psionics, I really do believe it is inappropriate for monsters to have "at will" powers / attack modes / defense modes. Perhaps the odd strange attack (biocurrent, for instance) but to do everything for free?!?!

To summarize Psionic attacks:
They should function on a variety of saving throws (not just Will), they should threaten to do damage on the scale of their cost (in actions as well as power points), and they should definitly be a threat to NPCs, PCs and Monsters.

At the moment they are a real waste of time.

 

[JLXC]

The people having problems with the Psionic Handbook as written, and telling you how powerful the Psion is, show that they have absolutely no actual knowledge of the book or the class. The Psion as written is the most underpowered class ever made for PC's unless you like being a commoner. They have no idea what they are talking about. I am so amazed this comes up anymore, considering even the designer of the book has redone the entire class while not working for WOTC.

They remember some stupid boogyman from 2E and they can't get over it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Green Slime

I do believe there is a WotC recommended fix for this in the FAQ. I could be wrong though, I have my own fix.

There isn't an official recommended fix (but if you dig through Monte Cook's psi forum, you can find Bruce's recommended fix). Good that you have your own fix

Yes, indeed. But it so dependant on there not being another encounter (at least at that low a level. I have no qualms about teaching players the healthy virtue of caution should they decide to be reckless. Recklessness has cost many a player their character.

I'm not saying it isn't powerful. I just don't have a problem with a player being powerful once in a while.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. To be honest, I've never actually allowed it, so it isn't like I have actual playtest experience in this area.

Having said that, I think psionics has to be held to a higher standard than magic, even if it ends up a tad weaker than magic. It's hard enough to get into a game, even if it weren't for memories of second edition, without making the DM have to make a series of house rules.

(I recently smacked down an anti-psionic revolt in a game where I'm a player. I'm so happy )

The original poster's character was "an egoist with 20 strength" I believe...

I noticed the part about the egoist. I missed the part about the 20 Strength. I'm not sure I see how the Strength score was important here... I'm probably missing the forest for the trees.

While all of your comments are true, I believe in a fashion that psionic combat, SHOULD work

I see what you mean. However, to be honest, I've rarely seen power points given to monsters work out well - at least not in second edition. (It was done well in Beasts of the Id, IMO, but of course Mindscapes psionic combat is free.) Psionic combat, on it's own, tends to throw a monkey wrench in the work.

IMO you should either make attack modes useful against every creature, or give a psionic creature a way of discerning psionic opponents. Mindscapes has something like this.

Furthermore, there shouldn't be a non-psionic buffer (otherwise no psion will ever want to use a defense mode).

The player SHOULD be able to whittle at a creature's defenses, and its power points, REDUCING its ability to sustain attacks.

This has it's advantages and it's disadvantages, of course. It worked like this in second edition (especially with The Way of the Psionicst) but it didn't work out very well. (Why bother with psionic combat, when you could just use project force to quickly defeat your opponent).

OK picture this.

A group of psions (6) surprise three of mindflayers.

They all mindblast their foes.

To NO EFFECT!!!!

I treat mind blast as a power IMC, to prevent this kind of confusion. Mind Blast is supposed to stun opponents; it isn't supposed to have some kind of extra/lesser effect against psions.

And yes, I agree with you here.

Walk unawares into a large field of Udoroots, manifest levitate, and see how many rounds it takes to reach 0 Strength...

I'm not sure if the udoroot would recognize the psionic effect but, if I were to ignore that, that's an absolutely nasty (and unfair) combo. It's almost like a demon with 3.0 haste that can cast feeblemind at will, then add an additional spellcaster anti-buffer... or a rust monster that can cast Mord's Disjunction

Psionic attack modes bypass PR, can't be blocked by Protection from Elements, and REQUIRE you to put up a defense against each attack. One on one they are hopeless. En masse they are a psion's nightmare.

That just put a hole in my theory about natural selection . Hopefull not a big one. Yeah, in a mass attack, this is just blatantly unfair.

JLXC

They remember some stupid boogyman from 2E and they can't get over it.

*Sigh* True, and they'll often remember one broken combo as well . Of course, some people are also scared of the power point efficiency (eg picture an NPC telepath with mass domination so the fears aren't entirely groundless.

 

[Spatula]

Actually I disagree.

It is one thing to have the ability to potentially end a combat with a single attack, and actually have the confidence to do it.

If you believe this is the last battle you will be facing for the day, fine. Then yes, this is a GOOD ability.

However, if you are unsure, if you believe there may be later surprises/ambushes/reinforcements , then a low level character would be very foolhardy to actually burn so much of his abilities/powers for the day in a single attack.

This is the same argument used in favor of the 2E psionics quirks, like being able to use disintigrate at 3rd level. "You could fail to get the power off, and you'll be wiped out of PSPs, so it's balanced." The thing is, this reduces the psion to being either useless or a near game-breaker when it comes to the final climactic encounter of an adventure. The opponents being faced at those levels have no way to defend against or counter high-level abilities like mind blast (assuming they're not undead or something). If the power works, the fight is over before the first round is finished... very anti-climactic. If not, the psion can contribute little to the battle.

While having mind blast at low levels is a nice gimme to the otherwise underpowered psion, a better design would make the psion more in-line with the other classes and reserve the high-level abilities for the appropriate levels.

 

[green slime]

Except, Spatula, you could say the same thing about all "save or die" spells, even at high level.

The thing is, even in a climatic final battle, against the the BBEG, it isn't likely to work. It is great for getting rid of a large number of low level mooks, but against that Evil Cleric (tm) it isn't likely to bite. Nor against an enemy Psion, Wizard, or Sorcerer.

A "climatic final encounter" will likely involve a classed creature at least a level or two above that of the PCs. With the appropriate equipment and challenge, the PCs shouldn't have a cake walk even with the Mind Blast.

I didn't say it was "balanced". I said I thought it was OK, that it wasn't an ability beyond that I was able to cope as a DM. Given some of the PrCs and other wacked out design features available to other classes, I find Mind Blast something relatively easy to handle.

Perhaps it is because there is always at least three story threads going on at the same time, so even if this is a "final climatic encounter" for one thread, the PCs are in no way certain that the other baddies are going to give them the leeway to lick their wounds.

A psion is reasonably in line. Somewhat weak, but with certain powers that really shine, in certain situations, and with the right set-up.

IF you find it such a real hastle, there is a VERY easy workaround: Don't allow PCs to use attack modes that have a power point cost greater than the powers they can manifest.

One sentence. A house rule. That is all. So easy.

In my experience, the number of times this ability comes up (low level psion, with mind blast, in a climatic "final" encounter, aware that nothing bad is going to happen for the rest of the day, who rolls High on the DC setting roll) is so infrequent it isn't worth mentioning.

Mindblast is also limited in that it affects ALL creatures within its cone-shaped blast. This should be used by the indiscriminate DM, if he has set-up a final encounter against an NPC that has been the center of PC attentions.

BTW, there is a huge difference between disintegrate at 3rd level and mindblast at 4th...

 

[The Blue Elf]

BTW, there is a huge difference between disintegrate at 3rd level and mindblast at 4th...

Well the saving throw for a powerful spell such as disintegrate because its a 5th level spell because any would save depending on how good they roll it, there is a 50/50 chance they might not save and die.

 

[Spatula]

Except, Spatula, you could say the same thing about all "save or die" spells, even at high level.

At higher levels foes have access to abilities or items that can protect against insta-kill effects. A low-level opponent is going to have no way to avoid or escape a high-level effect, other than its probably not-that-great saving throws.

I don't have a big problem with the 4th level PC using mind blast, I just think that it is poor design.

 

[green slime]

And on that Spatula we agree!

And Blue Elf, given all the DC increasing abilities available in 3e, it is very easy to raise so that no one without SR can have a hope in hell of actually making the save.

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell/power, at least in my books.

Even a third level non-human could have Greater Spell Focus (or Greater Power Focus). But this is beside the point.

The point being, psionics isn't as well thought out as it should be/we would like it to be.

There are lots of things about it that I do like, but psionic combat isn't one of them.

 

[The Blue Elf]

And on that Spatula we agree!

And Blue Elf, given all the DC increasing abilities available in 3e, it is very easy to raise so that no one without SR can have a hope in hell of actually making the save.

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell/power, at least in my books.

Even a third level non-human could have Greater Spell Focus (or Greater Power Focus). But this is beside the point.

The point being, psionics isn't as well thought out as it should be/we would like it to be.

There are lots of things about it that I do like, but psionic combat isn't one of them.

I have to agree on some cases that it would happen but at times but that depend on what level you are on the increases of DC in saving throws anyone can choose a feat or a ablity score as any unless they have all the prequitsites in order to do, or some magical item to increases it.

Psionic Combat/Defence mode system sucks at times I never use those modes because really you can't do much with them in combat unless you know how to use them for fun.

 

[Prince Atom]

About that "4th-level Egoist with Str 20" -- my bad. I just picked stuff arbitrarily for the sake of argument. I didn't give much thought to how such a character might have Str 20 because I didn't believe it was central to the problem.

As for Psionic Combat, how about removing the point cost for the defense modes? That way having to raise defense modes against a mass of attackers doesn't wipe out your offensive power. I might suggest a -2 penalty for each defense mode you activate after the first just to keep people from unbalancing play, but perhaps that's too much.

The Attack Modes would still have power point costs, of course.

As for the difficulty of the saves, perhaps you could vary them. Perhaps Ego Whip would allow a Reflex save, and Id Insinuation a Fortitude save. Mind Blast could function as the magic equivalent (save or die), while Mind Thrust and Psychic Crush would keep their Will saves.

I note: Play a savant. Your Con score will never suffer as a result of psionic combat using the attack modes given in the book, because none of those attack modes target Con.

TWK