Viking Justice

[Frosty]

Would paladins enforce this kind of justice or would they work to change the system into something more "civilized"?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

That seems like a really good legal system. And I entirely agree about the terrible jail break scenarios.

I've tended towards the feudal justice system before, but that isn't really suitable as almost any player will go for Trial by Combat over any of the others.

Now, I just need a reason to institute sweeping legal reform into the gameworld! Time for my thinking hat...

 

[DrSkull]

I found another good on-line article, Private Creation and Enforcement of Law: A Historical Case by David Friedman (son of Milton Friedman).

From the intro:

Legal conflicts were of great interest to the medieval Icelanders: Njal, the eponymous hero of the most famous of the sagas, is not a warrior but a lawyer--"so skilled in law that no one was considered his equal." In the action of the sagas, law cases play as central a role as battles.

There was a step in the process where the accused could challenge whether he was in fact responsible and was indeed the person who should be paying, that's where the lawyers come in.

That can make for some good role-play too. In one of my games an accused thief managed to bribe the chieftain's son to get himself acquitted.

 

[PaulKemp]

If you are seriously interested in this topic, this is a great book:

Bloodtaking and Peacemaking: Feud, Law, and Society in Saga Iceland

by William Ian Miller

Ah, you beat me to it. Curse you!

Miller's book is highly recommended. I actually had Professor Miller for a class in law school called "Blood Feuds." Great class. Involved the study of Icelandic sagas and, of course, his book.

Paul

 

[DrSkull]

Would paladins enforce this kind of justice or would they work to change the system into something more "civilized"?

I would imagine that paladins would try to stop a killing before it happened. But, once it did they would try their best to see that weregeld was paid and accepted to prevent outlawry or blood feud.

Not that I'd allow paladins in a pure Viking game, but if you are going to use the justice system in a non-Viking area that's where I'd see them falling.

A paladin would want to see the bloodshed end (good) and prevent the discord of a feud (lawful).

The interesting question is what happends if a paladin runs into someone who has been outlawed for killing and refusing to pay a settlement. His only choices are to kill (perhaps evil) or to let him go (perhaps chaotic) since there is no "jail" to take him to.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

The interesting question is what happends if a paladin runs into someone who has been outlawed for killing and refusing to pay a settlement. His only choices are to kill (perhaps evil) or to let him go (perhaps chaotic) since there is no "jail" to take him to.

Or he could capture him and make him pay the weregeld. Or make him work it off (i.e. some form of indentured servitude. Even if the locals have never heard of such an arrangement, a paladin would be the type to force the idea down their throats.). Depending on the circumstances surrounding the incident, a paladin may even feel compelled to help the outlaw pay off his debt.

 

[jester47]

Of course the Viking system works! Its what the modern US sytem is based on with a littke roman law thrown in to keep things centralised.

Depending on how civilised the region is I will throw a character in jail. If the others cant get him out, if he can't escape on his own, then he gets to serve his sentence. The player comes up with a new character and plays that until the ammount of time for the incarceration is over. I keep track of time IMC and since each session is self contained it really does not matter if the characters change from session to session.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

The interesting question is what happends if a paladin runs into someone who has been outlawed for killing and refusing to pay a settlement. His only choices are to kill (perhaps evil) or to let him go (perhaps chaotic) since there is no "jail" to take him to.

Well that person is not abideing by the law. The paladin would probably ask him why he was not paying and then have to jusde the guy based on that. If the reasons ring as evil in the paladins ears then he can go to town on the guy. Not to start a debate about what paladins can and cannot do because of alignment restrictions.

Aaron.

 

[Wolvorine]

Paladins

I don't understand why most people insist on insisting that killing is "Evil". It's morally and legally wrong in our modern world (mostly), but if you're walking around in another world entirely, with more than one dominant sentient race, multiple proven-to-exist dieties, different legal systems entirely, etc. then really now... if the Law says that this guy over there must pay his weregeld or die,then he must pay his weregeld or die, and to kill him is just and right and good. If this is the established law of the lands, then it's probably a good bet that the paladin's diety isn't against it, unless the paladin serves a diety who goes against the current thought-system.

Okay, sorry... yeah, Norse Law rocks.

 

[mmadsen]

Would paladins enforce this kind of justice or would they work to change the system into something more "civilized"?

What would a Paladin object to in Viking-style law? That there's no tax-supported police force with a jail? That didn't exist in western civilization until modern times. That criminal law is treated as civil law, with an emphasis on restitution rather than punishment? Perhaps some Paladins would rather chop off thieves' hands than have them give the money back, but I don't see the problem.

Our word for "law" comes from Viking society; there's nothing uncivilized about their legal system.

From The Vikings and the Law:

Did the Vikings have laws?
Oh, yes they did and we know what they were like. The very word LAW in English is a Viking word. The English word for a local law, e.g. laws about where you can park cars etc., is "by-law". The word "by" comes from the Scandinavian word for "town". Similarly a local election is called a "by-election". There are no indications that the 'Danelaw' in England was more lawless than the areas under Anglo-Saxon rule.

What was the Viking Legal System like?
The 'ting' was the Viking word for a legislative assembly and a court. A criminal was brought here to stand trial. The presumed facts of the case were established by a panel (Old Norse "kvidr") of people stating what they THOUGHT was the truth.

A jury of 12, two times twelve or three times twelve, depending on the importance of the case, decided the question of guilt. The 'law-sayer' told the jury what the law said about the crime committed and the accused was either convicted or declared innocent by the jury.

If convicted, the criminal was either fined or declared an out-law. To be an outlaw meant that the criminal had to live out in the wilderness and no one was allowed to help him in any way, and he was free game for his enemies. They were free to do their best to hunt him down and kill him.

'Ull's ring', the sacred ring of the Norse god ULL, is supposed to have been important at trials.

What about Vikings attacking and raiding other people?
There was no law against war with others (Is there today?). Like the Elizabethans in England and others, the Vikings had no law against piracy as long as it was against the "enemy", so raids outside the "law-area" were not illegal!