Vision and Night and Listen...

[Trainz]

Something came up tonight during the game. Me and the DM spent 30 minutes in the books trying to find the answer.

What is the line of sight for a human during outdoors night ? What rulebook and what page ?

We were fighting a giant troll (size huge), and it fled in the night. We spent a whole lot of time trying to find it (13 rounds) before we turned him into troll-kebab. So we ran after it, but after the first round, he was 120 feet away in the night, and that's when we started flipping the pages trying to find a clear answer on how to find him. We can't track.

I was thinking "Come ON, I don't care if it's middle of the night, how hard is it to follow by sight a huge critter ?"... I'm pretty sure I could follow an elephant that fled from me by sight during night. And I'm not even 8th level.

Another thing: we were also trying to find it by sound, and I couldn't find the Listen DC for an immobile creature. Surely something as clumsy and big as a giant troll makes SOME noise... ?

 

[FireLance]

I can't find the reference, but conditions of shadowy illumination usually apply when outdoors with some kind of natural light, e.g. moon, stars, etc. A human can see any distance, but dimly. Creatures with low-light vision see normally, as if they are in daylight, while creatures with darkvision see normally up to the limit of their darkvision.

Creatures in an area of shadowy illumination have concealment, so they can make Hide checks to remain unseen. By the book, an average troll is more dexterous than a human (Dex 14), but has no ranks in Hide. Assuming a giant troll has average Dexterity (Dex 10) and no ranks in Hide, it makes Hide checks at a -8 penalty due to its size. In addition, if it was running, an additional -20 penalty applies to its Hide checks. On the other hand, the Spot checks to find the troll are at a -12 because of distance (120 feet). Still, even in the best of circumstances (the troll rolls a natural 20), the Spot check to locate the troll should be very easy (DC 4, after factoring the penalty for distance). A creature will low-light vision should not even need to make the check since it can see as well as in daylight.

No size penalty applies to Move Silently checks, but the same -20 penalty for running does. After factoring distance, it requires at most a DC 12 Listen check to hear the troll (DC 2 on an average roll of 10).

If the troll was not running but standing still or moving slowly (up to half his speed) the Spot and Listen checks to find it would be an average of DC 14 and DC 22 respectively.

 

[Trainz]

I can't find the reference, but conditions of shadowy illumination usually apply when outdoors with some kind of natural light, e.g. moon, stars, etc.

What if it is a night-overcast-no moon ? Not total darkness surely...

A human can see any distance, but dimly.

What does dimly mean ? How much bonus on the hide check ?

Creatures in an area of shadowy illumination have concealment, so they can make Hide checks to remain unseen. By the book, an average troll is more dexterous than a human (Dex 14), but has no ranks in Hide. Assuming a giant troll has average Dexterity (Dex 10) and no ranks in Hide, it makes Hide checks at a -8 penalty due to its size. In addition, if it was running, an additional -20 penalty applies to its Hide checks. On the other hand, the Spot checks to find the troll are at a -12 because of distance (120 feet). Still, even in the best of circumstances (the troll rolls a natural 20), the Spot check to locate the troll should be very easy (DC 4, after factoring the penalty for distance). A creature will low-light vision should not even need to make the check since it can see as well as in daylight.

That's what I thought. It was ridiculous that it took so long to spot him. Hell, even with the druid changing into a bat, it took us 10 rounds, and he was 500 feet away at that point.

No size penalty applies to Move Silently checks, but the same -20 penalty for running does. After factoring distance, it requires at most a DC 12 Listen check to hear the troll (DC 2 on an average roll of 10).

If the troll was not running but standing still or moving slowly (up to half his speed) the Spot and Listen checks to find it would be an average of DC 14 and DC 22 respectively.

Where can I find the DC for an unmoving creature ? Please give me a page number.

Thanks ! A lot !

 

[FireLance]

What if it is a night-overcast-no moon ? Not total darkness surely...

I will be frank here - I've lived in cities all my life and I have no idea how dark it gets on an overcast night with no moon and no artificial light. 3e has three degrees of illumination: bright light, shadowy illumination and darkness. I guess it would be the DM's call whether to use shadowy illumination or total darkness.

What does dimly mean ? How much bonus on the hide check ?

Dimly meaning shadowy illumination. Creatures can make a Hide check opposed by your Spot check to remain unseen, but don't get any bonus on the Hide check.

Where can I find the DC for an unmoving creature ? Please give me a page number.

I don't have the books with me, but you can check the description of the Listen and Move Silently skills in the PH. If the hider is not moving, it should be a straight Move Silently check opposed by a Listen check, with modifiers for distance.

Thanks ! A lot !

You're welcome!

 

[Trainz]

Dimly meaning shadowy illumination. Creatures can make a Hide check opposed by your Spot check to remain unseen, but don't get any bonus on the Hide check.

OK that part is more clear now. Thanks.

I don't have the books with me, but you can check the description of the Listen and Move Silently skills in the PH. If the hider is not moving, it should be a straight Move Silently check opposed by a Listen check, with modifiers for distance.

I just checked Listen and Move Silently, and they don't say nothing about not moving and listen... "You can move up to one-half". They do assume there's minimal movement. I want to kow about NO movement. Standing still.

You're welcome!

You've been quite helpful. It's appreciated.

 

[Daedrova]

You would want to look at the examples for Listen skill DCs for this. Move Silently would seem to apply to a creature Moving (and trying to do it silently)
I don’t have the books with me, but I believe there was a listed DC under Listen for hearing creatures whispering on the other side of a wall. It would likely be at least that hard (or more so) to hear a creature merely breathing.
Distance would, of course, be a factor/penalty for the Listen check.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Listen would probably be the more appropriate skill at night. Especially if it's something big like a troll or elephant.

 

[Trainz]

Listen would probably be the more appropriate skill at night. Especially if it's something big like a troll or elephant.

Great.

How do you determine the listen DC for a troll that's standing still ?

 

[FireLance]

Great.

How do you determine the listen DC for a troll that's standing still ?

I can't find the rule (again), but I'd give it a +5 bonus on its Move Silently check for standing still. It wouldn't be totally silent as it would still make some noises that could be heard, e.g. breathing, small movements, etc.

 

[Trainz]

I can't find the rule (again), but I'd give it a +5 bonus on its Move Silently check for standing still. It wouldn't be totally silent as it would still make some noises that could be heard, e.g. breathing, small movements, etc.

I like that.

Move silently at +5. It works. Well in fact.

OR OR...

Take 10. You're not under duress, so you can take 10.