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Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?
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<blockquote data-quote="Marandahir" data-source="post: 8297259" data-attributes="member: 6803643"><p>So some thoughts on current subclasses who could be 6e themes with multiple optional class requirements. I'm going to loop them by current class and then list possible classes for each; if I don't list something it's because I think it's really a class-specific theme (or true subclass):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Artificer<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Artillerist -> Artificer or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battle Smith -> Artificer or Fighter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Forge Adept -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Domain?)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Barbarian<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battlerager -> Barbarian or Fighter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ancestral Guardian -> Barbarian or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Zealot -> Barbarian or Paladin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beast -> Barbarian or Druid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (LIKE IT ALREADY IS, NOMINALLY)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bard<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swords -> Bard or Fighter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Whispers -> Bard or Rogue</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Creation -> Artificer or Bard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spirits -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (combine with Grave Domain)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lorehold -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add Artificer</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cleric<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This is one where I don't think the subclasses work for any other class. I think you'd need a complete restructuring of the Cleric, and I'm not sure that's helpful for the Cleric (Domains are a wonderful idea for Clerics).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I do think that we currently have War and Order Domains that are Paladin-lite, Arcana Domain that is like a Mystic Theurge, and Nature Domain which is like a Druid-lite. There might be some room to allow Clerics to take themes working with some of those other classes instead of having a built in subclasses, but I do like the elegance of the current system for the Cleric specifically.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Note that if I list Cleric anywhere it's assuming this concept.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some options though:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Knowledge Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Death Domain -> Cleric, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard (combine with The Undead Patron and School of Necromancy)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcana Domain -> Cleric or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Forge Domain -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Adept)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Grave Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid (combine with College of Spirits)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Twilight Domain -> Cleric or Druid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Peace Domain -> Bard or Cleric</li> </ul></li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Druid<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dreams -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shepherd -> Druid or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spores -> Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stars -> Druid or Sorcerer (remember 4e Cosmic Sorcerer?)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prismari -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Witherbloom -> See UA</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fighter<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Knight -> Artificer or Fighter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Battle Master -> Fighter, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger (replaces Kensei and also replaces Martial Superiority feats and fighting styles)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Purple Dragon Knight -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Oath of the Crown)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcane Archer -> Artificer, Fighter, or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cavalier -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Samurai -> Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Paladin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Echo Knight -> Fighter or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rune Knight -> Artificer, Fighter, or Sorcerer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Psi Warrior -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with GOO Bladelock)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monk<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Four Elements -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadow -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Assassin)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Long Death -> Monk or Warlock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sun Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Divine Soul)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kensei -> Merge with Battle Master and superiority dice feats; Fighter, Monk Paladin, or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Astral Self -> Monk, Sorcerer, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ascendant Dragon -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Draconic Bloodline)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Paladin<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Ancients -> Barbarian, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Warlock<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Probably split into multiple concepts, a more Fey and a more Primal version</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Crown -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Purple Dragon Knight)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Glory -> Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Watchers -> Artificer, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Wizard (think Eldeen Reaches Orc Druid guardians of the natural world, or else Mordenkainen (Greyhawk) or Karla (Lodoss)'s guardianship of the Grey Middle against the tipping of any scales.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ranger<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beast Master -> Druid or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gloom Stalker -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monster Slayer -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fey Wanderer -> Bard or Ranger</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swarmkeeper -> Druid or Ranger</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arcane Trickster -> Artificer, Bard, or Rogue</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Assassin -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Way of Shadow)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swashbuckler -> Bard, Fighter, or Rogue</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scout -> Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Phantom -> Rogue or Warlock</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Soulknife -> Monk, Paladin or Rogue</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorcerer<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Draconic Bloodline -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Ascendant Dragon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (merge with Path of Wild Magic)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Divine Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Way of the Sun Soul)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shadow Magic -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Aberrant Mind -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with the Great Old One; essentially becomes the Psion of 6e, choose your key ability score based on the class you graft it to)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Clockwork Soul -> Artificer or Sorcerer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prismari -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Quandrix -> See UA</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This works a bit differently… The Pacts matter just as much as the Patrons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Fiend <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade Pact -> Paladin or Warlock (merge with Conquest or Oathbreaker and maybe with the Hexblade?)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Archfey <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade Pact -> Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger or Warlock (merge with oath of the Ancients?)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Great Old One<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade Pact -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with Psi Warrior)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with Aberrant Mind to get Psion theme for 6e)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Undying -> Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock (shift to be a bit more about immortality and imperishable spirit and combine the Lich stuff with The Undead patron)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade Pact -> Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> Make this the Templar from Dark Sun?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> This can be a theme for non Templars?</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Celestial <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade -> Delete, superfluous with Paladins and Clerics and open theme subclasses</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric or Warlock</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Hexblade -> Paladin or Warlock<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Remove Chains/Tome/Talisman pact and make this just Blade Pact</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potentially combine with Fiend Blade Pact and then with Oath of Conquest and/or Oathbreaker Paladin</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Genie -> Warlock or Wizard (Sha'ir were Wizards not Warlocks in early editions)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Fathomless <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock (I'm a pirate arrr)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains/Tome/Talisman-> Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (Clerics DESPERATELY need a Water domain that's not combining Poseidon with Zeus; Druids could draw on the depths too)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Undead<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Blade -> Paladin or Warlock (Combine with Hexblade and Fiend Bladelock and possibly Oath of Conquest/Oathbreaker)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores, and School of Necromancy)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lorehold -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Witherbloom -> See UA</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wizard<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Evocation -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Transmutation -> Bard, Druid, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conjuration -> Druid, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Divination -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enchantment -> Bard, Druid, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Illusion -> Bard, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Necromancy -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores MAYBE, and The Undead)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bladesinging -> Bard or Wizard (bladeSONG)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">War Magic -> Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Order of Scribes -> Artificer, Bard, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with College of Lore and Tome Pact Warlocks and most importantly with Silverquill; honestly, Silverquill is like a do-over of Tasha's Scribe by giving it to Bards and Warlocks too, and also combine in the old Archivist Artificer UA)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lorehold -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prismari -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Quandrix -> See UA</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer</li> </ul></li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Marandahir, post: 8297259, member: 6803643"] So some thoughts on current subclasses who could be 6e themes with multiple optional class requirements. I'm going to loop them by current class and then list possible classes for each; if I don't list something it's because I think it's really a class-specific theme (or true subclass): [LIST] [*]Artificer [LIST] [*]Artillerist -> Artificer or Ranger [*]Battle Smith -> Artificer or Fighter [*]Forge Adept -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Domain?) [/LIST] [*]Barbarian [LIST] [*]Battlerager -> Barbarian or Fighter [*]Ancestral Guardian -> Barbarian or Ranger [*]Zealot -> Barbarian or Paladin [*]Beast -> Barbarian or Druid [*]Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (LIKE IT ALREADY IS, NOMINALLY) [/LIST] [*]Bard [LIST] [*]Swords -> Bard or Fighter [*]Whispers -> Bard or Rogue [*]Creation -> Artificer or Bard [*]Spirits -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (combine with Grave Domain) [*]Lorehold -> See UA [*]Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add Artificer [/LIST] [*]Cleric [LIST] [*]This is one where I don't think the subclasses work for any other class. I think you'd need a complete restructuring of the Cleric, and I'm not sure that's helpful for the Cleric (Domains are a wonderful idea for Clerics). [*]I do think that we currently have War and Order Domains that are Paladin-lite, Arcana Domain that is like a Mystic Theurge, and Nature Domain which is like a Druid-lite. There might be some room to allow Clerics to take themes working with some of those other classes instead of having a built in subclasses, but I do like the elegance of the current system for the Cleric specifically. [*]Note that if I list Cleric anywhere it's assuming this concept. [*]Some options though: [LIST] [*]Knowledge Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Wizard [*]Death Domain -> Cleric, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard (combine with The Undead Patron and School of Necromancy) [*]Arcana Domain -> Cleric or Wizard [*]Forge Domain -> Artificer, Cleric, or Fighter (merge with Forge Adept) [*]Grave Domain -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid (combine with College of Spirits) [*]Twilight Domain -> Cleric or Druid [*]Peace Domain -> Bard or Cleric [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]Druid [LIST] [*]Dreams -> Bard, Cleric, or Druid [*]Shepherd -> Druid or Ranger [*]Spores -> Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock [*]Stars -> Druid or Sorcerer (remember 4e Cosmic Sorcerer?) [*]Prismari -> See UA [*]Witherbloom -> See UA [/LIST] [*]Fighter [LIST] [*]Eldritch Knight -> Artificer or Fighter [*]Battle Master -> Fighter, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger (replaces Kensei and also replaces Martial Superiority feats and fighting styles) [*]Purple Dragon Knight -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Oath of the Crown) [*]Arcane Archer -> Artificer, Fighter, or Ranger [*]Cavalier -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger [*]Samurai -> Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, or Paladin [*]Echo Knight -> Fighter or Ranger [*]Rune Knight -> Artificer, Fighter, or Sorcerer [*]Psi Warrior -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with GOO Bladelock) [/LIST] [*]Monk [LIST] [*]Four Elements -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer [*]Shadow -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Assassin) [*]Long Death -> Monk or Warlock [*]Sun Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Divine Soul) [*]Kensei -> Merge with Battle Master and superiority dice feats; Fighter, Monk Paladin, or Ranger [*]Astral Self -> Monk, Sorcerer, or Wizard [*]Ascendant Dragon -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Draconic Bloodline) [/LIST] [*]Paladin [LIST] [*]The Ancients -> Barbarian, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Warlock [LIST] [*]Probably split into multiple concepts, a more Fey and a more Primal version [/LIST] [*]Crown -> Fighter or Paladin (merge with Purple Dragon Knight) [*]Glory -> Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin [*]Watchers -> Artificer, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, or Wizard (think Eldeen Reaches Orc Druid guardians of the natural world, or else Mordenkainen (Greyhawk) or Karla (Lodoss)'s guardianship of the Grey Middle against the tipping of any scales. [/LIST] [*]Ranger [LIST] [*]Beast Master -> Druid or Ranger [*]Gloom Stalker -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock [*]Monster Slayer -> Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger [*]Fey Wanderer -> Bard or Ranger [*]Swarmkeeper -> Druid or Ranger [/LIST] [*]Rogue [LIST] [*]Arcane Trickster -> Artificer, Bard, or Rogue [*]Assassin -> Monk or Rogue (merge with Way of Shadow) [*]Swashbuckler -> Bard, Fighter, or Rogue [*]Scout -> Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue [*]Phantom -> Rogue or Warlock [*]Soulknife -> Monk, Paladin or Rogue [/LIST] [*]Sorcerer [LIST] [*]Draconic Bloodline -> Druid, Monk, or Sorcerer (merge with Ascendant Dragon) [*]Wild Magic -> Barbarian or Sorcerer (merge with Path of Wild Magic) [*]Divine Soul -> Monk, Paladin, or Sorcerer (merge with Way of the Sun Soul) [*]Shadow Magic -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Aberrant Mind -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with the Great Old One; essentially becomes the Psion of 6e, choose your key ability score based on the class you graft it to) [*]Clockwork Soul -> Artificer or Sorcerer [*]Prismari -> See UA [*]Quandrix -> See UA [/LIST] [*]Warlock [LIST] [*]This works a bit differently… The Pacts matter just as much as the Patrons. [*]The Fiend [LIST] [*]Blade Pact -> Paladin or Warlock (merge with Conquest or Oathbreaker and maybe with the Hexblade?) [/LIST] [*]The Archfey [LIST] [*]Blade Pact -> Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger or Warlock (merge with oath of the Ancients?) [/LIST] [*]The Great Old One [LIST] [*]Blade Pact -> Fighter, Paladin, or Warlock (merge with Psi Warrior) [*]Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (merge with Aberrant Mind to get Psion theme for 6e) [/LIST] [*]The Undying -> Druid, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock (shift to be a bit more about immortality and imperishable spirit and combine the Lich stuff with The Undead patron) [LIST] [*]Blade Pact -> Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> Make this the Templar from Dark Sun? [*]Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, or Warlock -> This can be a theme for non Templars? [/LIST] [*]The Celestial [LIST] [*]Blade -> Delete, superfluous with Paladins and Clerics and open theme subclasses [*]Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric or Warlock [/LIST] [*]The Hexblade -> Paladin or Warlock [LIST] [*]Remove Chains/Tome/Talisman pact and make this just Blade Pact [*]Potentially combine with Fiend Blade Pact and then with Oath of Conquest and/or Oathbreaker Paladin [/LIST] [*]The Genie -> Warlock or Wizard (Sha'ir were Wizards not Warlocks in early editions) [*]The Fathomless [LIST] [*]Blade -> Ranger, Rogue, or Warlock (I'm a pirate arrr) [*]Chains/Tome/Talisman-> Cleric, Druid, or Warlock (Clerics DESPERATELY need a Water domain that's not combining Poseidon with Zeus; Druids could draw on the depths too) [/LIST] [*]The Undead [LIST] [*]Blade -> Paladin or Warlock (Combine with Hexblade and Fiend Bladelock and possibly Oath of Conquest/Oathbreaker) [*]Chains/Tome/Talisman -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores, and School of Necromancy) [/LIST] [*]Lorehold -> See UA [*]Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer [*]Witherbloom -> See UA [/LIST] [*]Wizard [LIST] [*]Evocation -> Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Transmutation -> Bard, Druid, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Conjuration -> Druid, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Divination -> Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard [*]Enchantment -> Bard, Druid, or Wizard [*]Illusion -> Bard, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Necromancy -> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with Death Domain, Circle of Spores MAYBE, and The Undead) [*]Bladesinging -> Bard or Wizard (bladeSONG) [*]War Magic -> Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard [*]Order of Scribes -> Artificer, Bard, Warlock, or Wizard (combine with College of Lore and Tome Pact Warlocks and most importantly with Silverquill; honestly, Silverquill is like a do-over of Tasha's Scribe by giving it to Bards and Warlocks too, and also combine in the old Archivist Artificer UA) [*]Lorehold -> See UA [*]Prismari -> See UA [*]Quandrix -> See UA [*]Silverquill -> See UA, but also combine with Order of Scribes and add in Artificer [/LIST] [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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Volo's 5e vs Tasha's 5e where do you see 5e heading?
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