Vop vs spell casting materials

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Even loaded with spells, a spellbook still has very little value.

I call shenanigans!

 

[Infiniti2000]

I call shenanigans!

*gets out a truck full of brooms*

 

[Raven Crowking]

It only has value if he tries to sell it.

As opposed to what? What, exactly, has monetary value without sale value? Same thing.

RC

 

[fafhrd]

On both hands , it's no different.

In spite of how much I loathe this practice, there, fixed it for ya.

 

[Dimwhit]

OK, for all you literalists, I'll state my position--despite the fact that I still see this as a DM's call and a pointless argument.

You really have to define 'value' in terms of VoP. I don't see it as black and white. In many cases, what's valuable for one person is worthless for another. Examples: Divine Focus, spellbook. A magic sword, however, can be picked up by any member of a party and used (yes, there are exceptions).

A spell book, IMO, is more part of a class feature than an item of value, like a sword, that enhances existing class features (those being, in the case of a fighter, combat prowess). A Wizard without a spellbook is worthless (Spell Mastery notwithstanding). Spellbooks have no intrinsic value. Their only value is to spellcasters who can put it to use--again just a function of a class feature. As opposed to a +5 vorpal (I can't believe I'm entertaining this one), which does have intrinsic value. It's sellable to anyone and usable by most. It's not tied to a particular character/class.

So does it violate VoP to allow a spellbook? By RAW, perhaps. Why? Well, it's not listed in among the items permissible (though neither is a divine focus, but I'd certainly allow that). Also, it has value. I don't recall, however, that the VoP disallows items of 'value.' It doesn't say "you can't have anything worth more than 10gp" or anything to that effect. Why? My opinion is that VoP is very much a 'spririt of the concept' thing. Was VoP written so that Wizards can't take the vow? So that Clerics who take it can't use a divine focus? Maybe. I, however, don't see it that way, so I would rule as a DM that they're allowed; however, I would pay careful attention as to how the character uses that liberty. If they remain within my view of the spirit behind VoP, that's cool. However, if that Wizard then starts bumming scrolls from party treasure so he can stock his spellbook...well, he might find that book mysteriously gone in the middle of the night.

So there you have it. Not sure if I adequately summed up my position, but I want to go home now, so that's what you get.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A spell book, IMO, is more part of a class feature than an item of value, like a sword, that enhances existing class features (those being, in the case of a fighter, combat prowess).

I would love to play a wizard in your campaign. I could walk into any wizard's home and buy his spellbook off his hand for a couple coppers. After all, it's without any value whatsoever.

Spellbooks have no intrinsic value.

Other than the cost of the book, and the cost to scribe the scrolls into them, surely?

Their only value is to spellcasters who can put it to use

Oh - so they do have value - though some might disagree on exactly how much.

In other words, chicken has no intrinsic value. It just has value to people who want to eat.

Wood has no intrinsic value. It just has value to people who want to keep warm.

As opposed to a +5 vorpal (I can't believe I'm entertaining this one), which does have intrinsic value.

A +5 Vorpal sword has no intrinsic value. It only has value to people who want to cut people's heads off in a more efficient fashion.

In other words, I reject your argument outright.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Well ... while you make a straightforward case (that is it makes sense the way you present it) ... I disagree.

A character who has forsaken material posession...

A character who swears a Vow of Poverty and take the appropriate feats, Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, cannot own magic items...

you must not own or use any material posessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagical) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf ...

Now - we can debate whether or not a spellbook is magical. Inherently, it is not. But if it is protected, magically locked, etc it definately is! However, it is a material posession. The spellbook is not listed in the list of accceptable exceptions. Magical or not - it is a material posession.

Now, if the DM desires to interpret it differently and houserule it, that is there perogative. But it seems to be against the feat description to me.

EDIT: Oh, and as per the original question - you should allow the player to pick another feat. Eschew Materials is pointless for the character. They can own a spell component pouch which can contain any components less than 1 gp. Anything more than 1 gp isn't covered by the Eschew Materials feat anyway. Unless ... of course ... the player wants to eliminate the possibility of their spell component pouch being robbed or sundered. But how often does that happen anyway?

 

[irdeggman]

OK, for all you literalists, I'll state my position--despite the fact that I still see this as a DM's call and a pointless argument.

Always the case. Everything is DM fiat regardless of what the RAW states.

You really have to define 'value' in terms of VoP. I don't see it as black and white. In many cases, what's valuable for one person is worthless for another. Examples: Divine Focus, spellbook. A magic sword, however, can be picked up by any member of a party and used (yes, there are exceptions).

Well it does state only simple items (clothing) and ordinary simple weapons (so no long sword anyway, martial weapon). This restriction also bars a lot of the monk weapons since they aren't simple ones (exotic).

A spell book, IMO, is more part of a class feature than an item of value, like a sword, that enhances existing class features (those being, in the case of a fighter, combat prowess). A Wizard without a spellbook is worthless (Spell Mastery notwithstanding). Spellbooks have no intrinsic value. Their only value is to spellcasters who can put it to use--again just a function of a class feature. As opposed to a +5 vorpal (I can't believe I'm entertaining this one), which does have intrinsic value. It's sellable to anyone and usable by most. It's not tied to a particular character/class.

But so are martial weapons and armor for a fighter. Instruments for a bard are also very much tools of the trade but are definitely possessions.

So does it violate VoP to allow a spellbook? By RAW, perhaps. Why? Well, it's not listed in among the items permissible (though neither is a divine focus, but I'd certainly allow that). Also, it has value. I don't recall, however, that the VoP disallows items of 'value.' It doesn't say "you can't have anything worth more than 10gp" or anything to that effect. Why? My opinion is that VoP is very much a 'spririt of the concept' thing. Was VoP written so that Wizards can't take the vow? So that Clerics who take it can't use a divine focus? Maybe. I, however, don't see it that way, so I would rule as a DM that they're allowed; however, I would pay careful attention as to how the character uses that liberty. If they remain within my view of the spirit behind VoP, that's cool. However, if that Wizard then starts bumming scrolls from party treasure so he can stock his spellbook...well, he might find that book mysteriously gone in the middle of the night.

So there you have it. Not sure if I adequately summed up my position, but I want to go home now, so that's what you get.

It does allow a component pouch so I would say that spell components are allowed. But only as components. That is a 100gp pearl is OK when treated as a component but if attempting to "sell" it. . .

Note that both arcane and divine focii are considered spell components. Also there is not set cost for what a divine focus costs.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level x50 gp.


Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Selling a Spellbook
Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.

So a 5,000 gp item clearly seems to be a "valuable" item regardless of how the measure is.

 

[Dimwhit]

In other words, I reject your argument outright.

That's ok. I reject many of your arguments outright on a regular basis.

I will take issue with this comment, though:

Other than the cost of the book, and the cost to scribe the scrolls into them, surely?

Doesn't cost a Wizard anything to scribe the two spells per level into the spellbook. And if you read my earlier post, I would expressly not allow them to get scrolls and enter additional spells at an additional cost. Barebones spellbook, nothing more.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, then, what about the 15gp it costs to buy a blank spellbook?

Or is that also "not intrinsic value"?