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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9189109" data-attributes="member: 29398">Where I'm fine with there being - maybe not Always Evil, but certainly Always Enemy - species or cultures or whatever.And by the same token, not every ability has to come into (or be forced into) play.  I've had characters who by random chance turned out to be expert swimmers and yet they maybe did any swimming once in their played careers, if that.  And so what?  They found success in other ways, and things went on.And I maintain that doing so is a foundational error; and that doing so will only serve to reduce one's fun in both the short and long term.There's a middle ground where you roll 4d6k3 or even 5d6k3, rearrange, then for other elements (background, languages, etc.) either choose among some very basic ones that give no benefits or roll (and the roll is binding) if you want a chance at something more exotic that maybe carries some minor benefits with it.Ah - I thought it was baked in to the species.Still think it works better for Orcs, though - gives them something truly distinctive.What's HFY?Also, Humans might be boring but they're also the easiest species for us all to relate to; which makes it far easier to answer the question "what makes species X tick?" with answers that directly compare it to Humans, as in "A typical Dwarf tends to be shorter, heavier, tougher, a bit stronger, and a bit uglier than a typical Human".If you're playing a Dwarf who can drown on a whim then in-character it's in your best interests to make sure things stay on dry land, isn't it? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm still all about the stats penalties, unfortunate implications be damned.  If a species is on average less intelligent than Humans, make the stats reflect that.Reflected in the game as what?  And the answer, of course, is Humans. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Yeah, this points out a flaw when linear-math design is applied to things that really should be on bell curves: it breaks down at the extreme ends as the bell-curve isn't allowed to extend far enough to account for those extremes.  For encumbrance there should be a bigger difference between Str 17 and 18 than there is between Str 11 and 12, to (slightly) reflect the extremes of the bell curve.That said, sure someone could bench 535 pounds or lift 1000 but how far could they carry it? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Encumbrance is in theory supposed to represent what you can carry for a day's travel, rather than what you can lift for a moment or drag for thirty feet.So you split the difference and give them a boost or penalty, which could still be more than +/-2 but doesn't need to be as extreme as you note here.The more complicated - but IMO far more realistic - way of doing it, however, is to first determine what the range would be for each species and stat (for Humans it's 3-18 for all stats).  Thus a Dwarf's Str range might be 5-18, its Int range 3-18, Wis 3-18, Dex 3-17, Con 8-19, and Cha 3-16.  Then, you take the roll (which has to fall within the 3-18 range, of course) and modify it such that it's in the same relative place on the bell curve for that species/stat.  So, if a Dwarf rolls 6 for its Strength it would be forced to 8 but if it rolls 18 for its strength it stays at 18.  Flip side: if that Dwarf rolled 6 for its Charisma it would stay at 6 but a roll of 18 would get knocked down to 16.We've done it this way for something like 40 years now.  In practice, there's a chart that does the conversion for you.  It's still slower and more complex than simply applyng a flat + or - but IMO the added granularity and realism is worth it.If we're using roll-under for things, every stat point is going to make a difference.Yes.  I don't mind this at all; though "force" is too strong a word.  "Encourage" might be better, as there's nothing binding and one can always play against type if one chooses.Again, the extremes at the ends of the curve aren't reflected well.  I think for game purposes we pretty much have to assume that someone with Int 3 is still (perhaps barely) able to function to the point of walking and being able to do repetitive tasks - and of course to defend itself, but that's mostly pure instinct.  Those unable to function to that extent would be non-adventurers, and the game would assign them Int scores of 1 or 2.This is one thing 1e did right IMO: those with an extremely low stat had very little choice as to what class they could be.Thing is...and this may point out our differences here...I see stats as being universal absolutes.  If it has Str 6 it's going to roughly tie on an arm-wrestle with anyone else* of Str 6 and-or be able to lift/carry roughly the same weight, whether that "anyone else" is a Human or Orc or Elf or anything else.  The moment you start sayng they're not absolute, and that a Str 6 Orc is stronger than a Str 6 Human or that an Int 12 Orc is dumber than an Int 12 Human, the stat loses all relevance.* - with about the same length of arm, of course. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Because, using your own rationale, Orcs as a species are beefy and burly and thus just don't come that weak. (or if they do, they're not allowed out in public)They're entirely under our control once we start playing them.  During the generation process, however, I don't see them as being entirely under our control at all; because roll-up is the stage where the universe, in the form of dice, gets to have its say.</blockquote>

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