Vow of Poverty Clarification

[Jdvn1]

Well, a caster can always use his spells. The bonuses are temporary too. And Clerics are often quite powerful regardless.

 

[Bront]

In addition, I guess a cleric can enchant his own clothing/weapons with Magic Weapon and Magical Vestments and still be "poor".

So a Cleric could come out of this quite powerful ... hmmm ... and an Aasamir Cleric would be even worse ... hmmm ... okay thanks for the help.

D

Doesn't need to cast magic weapon or vestments, as he gets a natural enhancement bonus to his weapons after a while.

And the Aasamir Cleric's resistances get trumped by the resistances you get from the VoP.

 

[dvvega]

True ... I was just trying to think how some of the "newer" rules in Complete X might affect the Vow of Poverty ... for example Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) could be "abused".

Anyway ... thanks for the help.

D

 

[Particle_Man]

The feat description: simple weapons (a quarterstaff is indicated as a good example), simple clothes, food to sustain you for a day in a non-magic sack/bag, spell component pouch, no magic items of any sort but may benefit from them.

There is no indication of wealth limits except that you should give away most of your wealth so a cleric could have a platinum holy symbol as far as I read in a technicality ruled world.

I think the idea is that the list is exhaustive, since it says "you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions:"[which you listed above]. That means, no wealth (not even a single copper piece) since wealth is a material possession, no cleric's holy symbol (not even a wooden one) - note that you don't need it to cast divine spells (except those that require "divine focus" as a material component) but do need it to turn undead.

I would assume the Apostle of Peace description is in error, as the feat quite clearly does not allow magical items to be worn. And by a strict interpretation, if a cleric cast "magic vestments" then their clothes would become magical and they would have broken their vow of poverty right there, since they cannot have clothes with magical properties.

Since the vow gives so many bonuses (including 11 bonus feats!) I have no problem being extremely stingy with it.

 

[Bront]

It only gives 11 bonus feats if taken at 1st level, which doesn't always happen.

The Holy Symbol falls under the spell component thing (Seriously, that's unreasonable to assume he can't have it, so the cleric is the only one who will loose class features because of this? Same with a bard and his musical instrument, though I guess you could use summon instrument to call one when needed).

The enchanted clothes is tricky, but, if it's not permanent, it shouldn't be that big of a deal (now if it becomes permanent, then that's another issue).

 

[Particle_Man]

Actually, holy symbol specifically does *not* fall under the spell component thing, unless your DM is willing to house rule it. Spell Component Pouch is specifically listed in the phb, and holy symbol is listed separately. In the description of Spell Component Pouch, divine focuses (like holy symbols, and mistletoe) are specifically excluded. There is no room for ambiguous interpretation here. If you allow a wooden holy symbol, you are in house rule territory. There are plenty of spells that don't require divine focus, so your cleric/druid can get by. And the bard can learn to sing. No instrument needed for that. The fighter doesn't get martial weapons, so the other classes can make do with less as well. If you don't like it, then why are you taking Vow of Poverty?

The "magic vestments" spell is more debatable, although I would say that the duration quickly makes the "magical clothing" effect "effectively permanent" if you have multiple copies of this spell, and thus I would personally not allow it. But I will allow this one to be a judgement call, as it is not clearly spelled out what the status of spells temporarily enhancing clothing would be.

*However*, I just noticed that the "Magic Vestments" spell requires a Divine Focus, which the vow of poverty character is specifically not allowed to have as it is not on the "allowed" list (maybe the writers of BoED specifically thought of this case and didn't put divine focuses on the "Allowed" list for this reason). So "Magic Vestments" is disallowed for this reason, even if you don't disallow it for making "magic clothes".

 

[Cheiromancer]

A perverse reading of the text would be that the VoP character can have a spell component pouch, but that it has to be empty.

But it seems scarcely a house rule to allow inexpensive spell components (less than 1 gp). Since "divine focus" is a spell component, a cleric can have a wooden holy symbol.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

It's called Vow of Poverty. So if you're walking around with a holy symbol made of gold just b/c that's what clerics of a particular god like to use, I'd say that's a violation. There's almost always no reason that such a holy symbol couldn't instead be made of wood or some other mundane material. A noble's outfit is far more expensive than other clothes available so IMO that's a violation as well (I can see such a character rather walking around naked than wearing such garb).

Considering all the benefits the vow provides, it seems pretty obvious (at least to me) that DMs should be pretty strict in administering what the vow entails.

 

[Drowbane]

For example what about a Cleric's Holy Symbol?

Because the Apostle of Peace requires the Vow of Poverty but they also cast Divine Spells.).

By the book, no Holy Symbol. But only the most anal DM wouldn't let you have a simple one.

IMC (yes, I'm aware you didn't ask ), I change the things allowed so that your weapon(s) can't excede a certain coinage value... rather than having to be Simple. I think 10gp max. As written a VoP charactor could be sporting a Heavy X-bow (50gp) and a Heavy Mace (12gp) but not a Kama (exotic / monk - 2gp) or a Whip (exotic - 1gp), or a Sap (martial - 1gp). What does poverty have to do with your weapon training.

In addition that same PrC implies they they can bypass certain restrictions ...

For example under Weapons and Armour it states:

As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armour, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armour).

Pretty sure thats a typo, still waiting on Errata there.

 

[Particle_Man]

From the SRD:

"Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch."

Thus the Spell Component Pouch will not be empty, but rather will have various material components and focuses (sand, fleece, etc.), with the EXCEPTION of divine focuses or any component that costs money or any focus too big for a pouch. So no holy symbols, period. You (or rather, your DM if you are a player) can house rule what you (he or she) want(s), but be ready to lose that holy symbol in a tournament game that allows VoP.