Vow of Poverty Help

[Psychic Warrior]

You are powerful because you have extremely high Wis and Dex scores and insane HP, neither of which are Vow issues. How are your HP so high? They are near maximum. Your average HP assuming max at L1 should be 8+11[(8+1)/2])+12 = 69.5, and a range of 31 - 108, but you have 90.

Maybe he rolled well? This doesn't seem 'insane' at all. Many PCs in games I play could easily get this high with good rolls. Also a 12th level character with less than a 100hp is pretty weak in my book (especially one that is spending a signigficant amount of time in hand to hand)

As a DM I would never do something like your DM is proposing. It is grossly unfair and really won't adress the problem anyway - you'll still have all those powers and he will have to deal with it. Making you advance more slowly than everyone else really isn't going to address the immediate problem.

 

[Castellan]

The Vow of Poverty feat is one of my favorites as a DM and as a Player. But that's partly due to its strong roleplaying requirements. I think that this feat requires some close collaboration with the DM both at the table and away from it.

For instance, your character should still want his share of the treasure because he needs to perform acts of charity. Someone else here mentioned "buying that character out." However, if I was roleplaying someone with Vow of Poverty, I would demand my choice of the treasure just like anyone else. My church might be able to use that Ring of Protection +2.... Of course, if I can't see a use for magic, I might allow my position to be bought out.

Then there's the issue of distribution of wealth. This is where the DM needs to include some roleplaying opportunities for your PC. What if he sees that the church is not distributing money in a way that he believes is best? Should he still give the money to the church, or should he distribute the money to the poor, himself?

What happens if he hears about an oppressive baron who keeps his peasants perpetually cold and hungry, using promises of a meal or some firewood to get more work out of them. They're living in near slave-like conditions. What would he do if he thought he could help those poor people? And what kind of plot might arise when the baron realizes that there is some good-hearted soul who is wrecking his plans for slave-labor?

I think anyone simply looking at the game-mechanics of the Vow is missing the strong roleplaying benefits/requirements that exist. Most of the people I game with would never take it because they're too equipment-hungry. But I think it's a great feat.

Talk to your DM about adding some plot threads that revolve around the Vow of Poverty. One of the best might even be that your PC has discovered that the money given to the church was stolen... Perhaps the PC has a dream sent by his deity that informs him that if he does not recover the money within 10 days, he'll lose the benefits of his Vow of Poverty, never to reclaim them...

Suggest to your DM that the Vow of Poverty should easily offer you as many challenges as it does benefits. There should definitely be times when having taken the Vow seems more like a curse than a blessing. It's supposed to be a sacrifice, and if the DM is willing to do some thinking about special side-plots or sub-plots, he can make that Vow seem both good and bad.

Forcing a +4 Level Adjustment on you (which is waaaay too much) is the easy way out and misses the many opportunities for great gaming that can arise. To me, it's no different from rolling a Gather Information check rather than actually role-playing talking to people. Not fun.

Good luck. I know that if you were in my game, you'd have a great time with that character, and I'd love the chance to throw some great challenges your way. I hope your DM will see that there's a lot of story potential there, too.

 

[Drowbane]

I understand, but on the other hand, it DOES fit in with the legends surrounding holy persons throughout history, like St. Francis of Assissi or Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) in the sense of all the miracles attributed to them.

With that in mind- I do have ONE problem with VoP - it grants more than any other sacred vow. I would probably like to see the other vows get similar treatment, for balance's sake.

After all, such personages typically had taken all or most of those vows (in game terms), so it seems slightly arbitrary that VoP is the one that grants you the big ol' laundry list of abilities.

Perhaps Abstinance would grant immunity to poisons, and add neutralizing abilities, etc. as opposed to mere bonuses.

Perhaps Obedience would grant Law Domain spells and abilities.

Perhaps Purity would grant immunity to level draining/negative energy effects.

etc.

In other words, my problem isn't with the VoPovery, but with the relative weakness of the other sacred vows.

Agreed, some of the other Vows smack of weakness. (relatively, that is)

Poverty and Peace are two I see mostly used as a result (obviously this includes Non-Violence).

I just need to find a DM who let me play my Vow of Poverty & Peace (ends up with a ton a vows, ) Monk | Paladin gestalt...

 

[Dragonblade]

I agree that its your attributes that make you so tough. Not necessarily the VoP. However, one other thing to consider is whether the DM gives out the appropriate amount of magic for the PC's levels.

Many DMs favor a low-magic game and tend to be somewhat stingy with magic items. If you use the VoP feat, but the other PC's aren't getting the magic they should be for their character level, then you probably are overpowered in relation to the other PCs.

One other thing to consider, is that I believe that any character who possesses one or more Exalted feats, basically has to live by the same code as a paladin with some slight modifications and allowances for alignments and such. Since you are a monk, if I was your DM I would require you to be LG and pretty much act like a paladin in all situations. Furthermore, you would still request your share of the treasure, including magical treasure. You wouldn't use it, of course, but you would keep it in a sack and donate it to your church when you go back to town.

If the DM is still really concerned about the feat, he can take it to the extreme. Basically say that you are not allowed to even accept potions or beneficial spellcasting from the group. But I don't think that a +4 level adjustment is the best solution.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

+4 LA, you're getting hosed.

At a fundamental level, if he's saying that HE THINKS you have abilities equal to the gold-piece-equivalent of a character 4 levels higher, then the actual adjustment is only about +1 LA at those levels.

And that's the thing, LA sucks because things that are really worth a level or two at lower levels are speed bumps at higher levels.

As a GM I'd have alot more in the way of issues with your racial choice than with VoP. Granted, I don't allow VoP in my games, but I'm a weird draconian monster when it comes to keeping things core ... just for this reason. I hate feeling like I need to go to a message board or hose a PC because I let Jack Minmaxer take VoP and now his monk overshadows the rest of the party on a daily basis.

If you're outperforming the party, then there's a problem. You should be good, and have a purpose, but be honest with yourself and look at what's going on with the party dynamic. If everything is coming down to the rest of the party backing up Das Ubermonk as he ninja-kicks everybody to death ... then something about how the rest of the game is being run is causing problems. But I don't think it's a great idea to give you +4 LA. He could give you a negative level, perhaps ... "negative level", not a real one. Perhaps he could tie it into the campaign as a curse layered by the Big Bad Evil Guy that can only be raised by defeating him and destroying his Crystal Dodad of Doom ... of course, when that happens the campaign is over, but it gives you a goal and reduces your overall power level.

If you're NOT totally overshadowing the rest of the party but the GM is just annoyed that you've got abilities that he's not sure how to deal with ... then he needs to limit source material BEFORE the game begins. For my part, I knew I didn't like VoP before I ever let it into a game. I'd say the rest of the gaming group should get some input. If everybody else is tired of your character ... then either they've got issues with him or with you.

--fje

 

[Bryan898]

I can't tell why your DM thinks your character is overpowered? You do have a high AC and DR, but that's about all that the VoP is really giving you that makes your character powerful or frustrating. Anything with a DR that needs a certain alloy to bypass will be extremely hard for you to damage, and at the higher levels that's almost everything. Personally, I think the VoP breaks down at about your level, and tapers off.

What would I do? Get another character sheet and remake your character, but extract all the VoP stuff and Exalted feets. Keep you HP rolls, stats rolls, etc, but give him the wealth he should have at his level. Then let the DM compare the "huge" difference in power.

Next, get another character sheet, and level the non-VoP monk up to level 16. Include all the wealth. Then compare him to your level 12 VoP monk, and see if they're anywhere at all near the same power level. I have a feeling not.

 

[Pseudonym]

Race - Buoman(sp?)

What is that?

 

[Jarrod]

Time to roll a new character

Seriously, though... if your GM thinks that that VoP is powerful enough to warrant a +4 LA (AKA "kick me" sign), you're not going to be able to convince him. You can take the most well-reasoned arguments and they're going to bounce. BTW, there have been threads both here and at the Wizards boards that have such arguments. But hey.

Now, the VoP benefits are huge (esp. for a monk or a shifter druid), but the drawbacks are also huge. I think the GM is seeing the benefits without the drawbacks. First, there's the limitations on items. Not using stat boosters... eh. Not being able to use one-shot items is enormous. Can't feed a potion to your buddy. DR is going to _suck_ unless it's magic or adamantine. Now, a monk looses less than most because your class abilities balance it out to a degree... but the second time in a day you're stuck in a Forcecage is going to make you wish for a Helm of Teleportation.

Then there's the roleplaying. Exalted is all about the ends _never_ justifying the means. Kill a child to save a city? Sorry, won't do it. A world? Sorry. The universe? Nope. If the GM can get you into situations where the restrictions matter, then you're going to see a downside of the VoP (or any Vow for that matter). If it never comes up, then... well, it never came up.

I played a VoP wizard for a while (let's ignore the question of "spellbook", it was finessed by the GM). The adventures ended up never really making a big deal of it... and it ended up being overpowered and boring. Now, a wizard is arguably one of the weakest VoP classes; if I'd been playing a monk or druid, it would have been _really_ overpowered and boring. The roleplaying restrictions are integral to the balance of the ability.


I'd suggest a compromise. You want the roleplaying aspects of the VoP, and the GM doesn't like the mechanics. I've always been a big fan of handwaving in these situations. Why not allow the monk to sacrifice/give away/whatever his share of the treasure, and basically have "virtual items" that he "buys" with that donated gold. That way your treasure will match everyone else's. They're the result of favor by a god or something. You'll take a big hit to AC (one of the reasons that VoP is so good for a monk or shifter...), but you'll also get the ability to customize. It might work out okay.

 

[Nightfall]

Well in any case I agree with what everyone else has said. LA +4 you are getting BADLY hosed. No DM should do that just for ONE frigging feat.

 

[Anax]

I'm playing a monk with VoP right now, and my DM and I worked to tone down the power a bit. As far as we can tell, the *key* thing you should do for any character who usually does not get to wear armor is decrease the VoP AC bonus by 4.

If you do that, the AC a character gets from class features (for the monk) or spells/powers (for a wizard, sorcerer, or psion) make up the difference. At this point, you're at about the right level power-wise for your character level. Occasionally, you'll get an exceptionally powerful feature in one dimension. At other times, you'll drop behind. (Notice, for example, that the resistance bonus to saving throws progresses a heck of a lot slower than any character I've ever played buys cloaks of resistance.)

Anyway, good luck.