VP/WP Questions

[Eltern]

If this should go in house rules because it's UA stuff, can an admin please move it?

Trying to think of a way for players to be more scared of combat in my upcoming campaign, AND not to just make clerics heal-monkeys (they are in my groups, it seems. I know, they still haven't figured out the cleric is so powerful ) so I looked at VP/WP. Looking good, but I have four questions:

1. Big creatures/small creatures. Big and small creatures ALREADY get bonuses/penalties to their constitution scores because of their size. Is there some particular reason this bonus/penalty is there AGAIN for wound points? If I just said "Those multipliers by size aren't there" and didn't adjust the big creatures CRs should I probably be good?

2. Going unconcious. While it did require that you kept two different running totals of subdual damage/hitpoints, I liked the way 3.x D&D handles knocking someone unconcious. Is there another way mentioned in the Star Wars rules or somesuch how one might go about implementing a decent way to knock someone unconcious with WP/VP? Because right now, I see -no way- to deliberately knock a person unconcious, but not dying.

3. The rules about dying (0 wound points and below) seem complicated/convoluted. Not having played it but just looking at it, it seems that anyone with a good fortitude save is going to have a harder time dying now than before. Can someone assure me that this is not the case, and I simply have difficulties figuring out the implications of very massive rule changes (Which I know to be fact )

Last, but not least:
4. Part of why I want this system is to be able to say that certain things just go straight to wound points, namely falling damage. Anyone see a problem with this? No more "A boulder falls on you" "I'm still at 200" Any particular recommendations with implementing this? (Falling damage is a pretty easy thing to adjudicate, but other stuff may need to be ad hoc'ed)

Thanks!
Eltern

 

[Starglim]

4. In d20 Star Wars, falling damage requires a Reflex save, which if failed applies the damage directly to Wound points. You could apply this mechanic to other things, such as starship/siege weaponry.

 

[RangerWickett]

1. Big creatures/small creatures. Big and small creatures ALREADY get bonuses/penalties to their constitution scores because of their size. Is there some particular reason this bonus/penalty is there AGAIN for wound points? If I just said "Those multipliers by size aren't there" and didn't adjust the big creatures CRs should I probably be good?

Here's what I do. Big creatures' bonus HP from Constitution becomes their WP. They don't get any bonus or penalty compared to the core rules.

2. Going unconcious. While it did require that you kept two different running totals of subdual damage/hitpoints, I liked the way 3.x D&D handles knocking someone unconcious. Is there another way mentioned in the Star Wars rules or somesuch how one might go about implementing a decent way to knock someone unconcious with WP/VP? Because right now, I see -no way- to deliberately knock a person unconcious, but not dying.

In my version of the what-I-call 'Hit Point/Wound Point' rules (because 'vitality' is too long of a word), whenever you take any Wound Point damage, you make a Fort save (DC 20, with a bonus equal to your remaining WP), to avoid going unconscious. This allows for mooks to go down easily, taking them out with one punch without killing them.

Also, I don't know if this is in the UA rules, but in my system, people with WP damage have a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.

3. The rules about dying (0 wound points and below) seem complicated/convoluted. Not having played it but just looking at it, it seems that anyone with a good fortitude save is going to have a harder time dying now than before. Can someone assure me that this is not the case, and I simply have difficulties figuring out the implications of very massive rule changes (Which I know to be fact )

I cannot assure you of this fact. I house ruled this in mine to get a more cinematic feel of dying words and such. I like people dying less regularly.

Last, but not least:
4. Part of why I want this system is to be able to say that certain things just go straight to wound points, namely falling damage. Anyone see a problem with this? No more "A boulder falls on you" "I'm still at 200" Any particular recommendations with implementing this? (Falling damage is a pretty easy thing to adjudicate, but other stuff may need to be ad hoc'ed)

I see no problem with it, as long as you don't throw these things against your party all the time.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

fyi - I'm in a DND 3.5 group (been playing since 3.0) and a SW20 group (been playing for about half that time) so let me see if I can field these for you

[
1. Big creatures/small creatures. Big and small creatures ALREADY get bonuses/penalties to their constitution scores because of their size. Is there some particular reason this bonus/penalty is there AGAIN for wound points? If I just said "Those multipliers by size aren't there" and didn't adjust the big creatures CRs should I probably be good?
]

Um. No. There's a link on WotC that addresses this. I'll see if I can dig that up for you - it's an easy task, but it clarifies why the answer to your question is No.

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2. Going unconcious. While it did require that you kept two different running totals of subdual damage/hitpoints, I liked the way 3.x D&D handles knocking someone unconcious. Is there another way mentioned in the Star Wars rules or somesuch how one might go about implementing a decent way to knock someone unconcious with WP/VP? Because right now, I see -no way- to deliberately knock a person unconcious, but not dying.
]
Yes and no. SWd20 messed up when it came these definitions IMO. If you read through the states in the SWHB you find that each state Stunned, Dazed, Unconscious, and Knocked Out are considered independent of each other. Pure SIllines that has had our group trying to figure out how to handle stun.

Personally, if you liked 3.x style for subdual damage - just apply it to SW. Reduces VP first, then WP, as subdual damage in a different damage column. Crits go straight to Wounds. Should Subdual Wounds + Real Wounds taken = 0 - you're unconscious.

But again, I think that WotC link spoke to this as well.

[
3. The rules about dying (0 wound points and below) seem complicated/convoluted. Not having played it but just looking at it, it seems that anyone with a good fortitude save is going to have a harder time dying now than before. Can someone assure me that this is not the case, and I simply have difficulties figuring out the implications of very massive rule changes (Which I know to be fact )
]

Yep. It's easier all around to die in Star Wars with the VP/WP system. Higher Con helps - makes those pesky 'wound taken' fort saves a little easier, plus high numbers. However, there is nothing after 0. You fall below 0 wounds, you are dead. It's actually simpler than DnD - and a little deadlier.


[
Last, but not least:
4. Part of why I want this system is to be able to say that certain things just go straight to wound points, namely falling damage. Anyone see a problem with this? No more "A boulder falls on you" "I'm still at 200" Any particular recommendations with implementing this? (Falling damage is a pretty easy thing to adjudicate, but other stuff may need to be ad hoc'ed)
]

As stated above, SW typically allows a reflex save to avoid falling damages. If you choose to ignore that part of vp/wp and have falling damage go straight to WP - OW that'll hurt.

WP is the only thing that seperates a character from certain death. Anything that hits that poses an immediate, lethal threat to the character.

If you're looking for that kind of feeling (and wanting to avoid the whole wimpiness of VP (you tore his clothing with your blade, or you singed his eyebrow as he jerked out of the way of your blaster - but you still 'hit')) then I'd recommend a close look at the Grim'n'Gritty stuff out there.

Just be careful of applying things to WP - think of them as your 'CON' in DnD - and applying things to your VP is like applying them to your hit points in DnD.

 

[reanjr]

If this should go in house rules because it's UA stuff, can an admin please move it?

Trying to think of a way for players to be more scared of combat in my upcoming campaign, AND not to just make clerics heal-monkeys (they are in my groups, it seems. I know, they still haven't figured out the cleric is so powerful ) so I looked at VP/WP. Looking good, but I have four questions:

1. Big creatures/small creatures. Big and small creatures ALREADY get bonuses/penalties to their constitution scores because of their size. Is there some particular reason this bonus/penalty is there AGAIN for wound points? If I just said "Those multipliers by size aren't there" and didn't adjust the big creatures CRs should I probably be good?

2. Going unconcious. While it did require that you kept two different running totals of subdual damage/hitpoints, I liked the way 3.x D&D handles knocking someone unconcious. Is there another way mentioned in the Star Wars rules or somesuch how one might go about implementing a decent way to knock someone unconcious with WP/VP? Because right now, I see -no way- to deliberately knock a person unconcious, but not dying.

3. The rules about dying (0 wound points and below) seem complicated/convoluted. Not having played it but just looking at it, it seems that anyone with a good fortitude save is going to have a harder time dying now than before. Can someone assure me that this is not the case, and I simply have difficulties figuring out the implications of very massive rule changes (Which I know to be fact )

Last, but not least:
4. Part of why I want this system is to be able to say that certain things just go straight to wound points, namely falling damage. Anyone see a problem with this? No more "A boulder falls on you" "I'm still at 200" Any particular recommendations with implementing this? (Falling damage is a pretty easy thing to adjudicate, but other stuff may need to be ad hoc'ed)

Thanks!
Eltern

Now, I like running deadly campaigns, so some of this might be a bit harsh, but bear with me for how I implemented the wound/vitality system. It's more inspired by UA than based on.

- WP=Con score
- Dying at 0 WP, For DC 15 to stabalize
- While at 0 or less, you lose 1 hp/round until stabalized
- Dead at -10
- Unconscious at 0 VP
- -2 to everything if you are not at full WP
- Criticals go directly to WP, but do not multiply dmg*
- Do not apply Con bonus to rolling VP (they have already benefited by having higher WP, this skews the game to more hp at lower levels and fewer at higher levels)
- Static modifiers to hit points (i.e. Toughness) apply to WP. Rolled modifiers to hit points go on VP. So cure light wounds (1d8+1) would heal 1d8 VP and 1 WP. Healing WP rolls over to VP, but not the other way around. Heal heals all WP, then rolls over into VP. Conversely, harm affects both WP and VP, but cannot take the last point of either. This is more a guideline than a rule, there are several exceptions that I'm sure you can come up with on your own.
- naturally heal 1 WP/night of rest (even at higher levels, still 1) and a number of VP equal to you hit dice/levels per hour of rest.
- creatures without a Con score use their VP as their WP and do not suffer the effects of not having full WP.
- due to logistical reason, you may want to subtract a creature's size modifier from their WP (subtracting a negative number is adding). This is a bit more realistic and it can offset the problem of weak large creatures with lots of Hit Dice (due to not applying the Con bonus).

This method basically uses the W/V system to extend the 0 hit point range of health. This makes it more realistic, as you have a period where you are injured and still fighting. This also makes critical hits more important as they can kill a creature with low Con/high Hit Dice quicker.

While you have a valid point that creatures with high Fort are going to not die as often, I see this as a logical leap (they are simply better at bouncing back). High level character's with high Fort saves also have a propensity for going from healthy to dead alot more, so allowing the high scaling Fort save might balance that out. If you are worried about scaling, use raw Con and change the DC to 10. I think my system addresses all other points.

*Actually a bit more complicated. Subtract 1 from the multiplier. If it is now x1, then all damage goes to WP. If it is greater than 1, 1x dmg goes to WP, the rest to VP. Otherwise a x3 or x4 weapon has been nerfed.

 

[Ferret]

RangerWickett How have you house ruled point 3? I like the way vp/wp works but I dislike its rules beyond 0 WP.

 

[RangerWickett]

My basic house rules on Wound Points.

You have Hit Points as normal for your class, level, Constitution, etc. These heal at a rate of 1 per level per hour.

You have Wound Points equal to your Constitution, or 3/4 your Constitution if you're small (this is unbalanced, since it makes small races easier to kill).

When you run out of HP, additional damage goes to your WP. Critical hits do not go to WP directly. (I use this system not to make combat more lethal, but rather less lethal. I like the image of characters wounded and hindered from the injury, but I'd rather have folks healing their scrapes and bruises quickly. It also provides for more drama, since there's a palpable sense of dread when you hit WP and start a spiral toward death).

Whenever you take WP damage, make a Fort save (DC 20, with a bonus equal to your remaining WP) to avoid going unconscious.

When you have any WP damage, you take a -2 penalty to all physical checks and saves.

When you are at 0 WP or below, you are disabled, and must make a Fort save (DC 15) each round to avoid taking a point of WP damage. If you succeed the save by 5 (DC 20), you stabilize and no longer take any damage.

While disabled in this way, you can only take a single move action each round. You may choose to take a standard action, but doing so causes you a point of WP damage, and causes you to stop being stabilized. Even while at negative Wound Points, you do not automatically go unconscious. If you succeed your Fort save to stay conscious when you go below 1 WP, you remain conscious until you die, even as you continue to take damage. This allows for dying speeches and desperate attempts to save the day with your last breath.

 

[mirivor]

I am on the verge of introducing this system to my players, though I call it hit point/blood point


1. Do not take away the size modifiers to WP. This is critical for several reasons. The main one to me is that later, when the players have wide crit ranges, they will be able to take down even massive creatures like dragons if the massive beasties don't have the bonus points

2. One method to consider is taking "nonlethal" damage applies directly to VP. Since VP represents luck, evasion, and basic energy, rule that nonlethal damage affects VP normally. Only when a character is out of VP, or when a critical hit is achieved using nonlethal means, do you start comparing point totals.... in this case, a characters current wp total against the nonlethal damage that he has taken above and beyond his VP..... Was that understandable?

3. That is the case. Someone with high constitution, by its very definition, should die harder, so to speak. If I am hardier than my buddy and we both take a thwacking, I will bounce back faster than he. Something that I altered was the whole "made the save by x" rule. I decided that character may fall to -10 WP. When they reach zero, they make the fortitude save DC 15 to remain conscious, whether they stabilize or not they continue the saves every round with cumulative +1 to the DC. This allows for the Boromir scene types, where a warrior is dying but able to speak.

Last, but not least:
4. Be careful here. D&D is still a fantasy game, and being crushed by boulder after boulder every adventure would get really discouraging. I would rule that if you are crushed and fail your saving throw, then you take the full damage to VP AND 1 WP damage per die. So, if the boulder deals you 10D6, you take 10D6 VP and 10 WP.

 

[Eltern]

Alrighty, I'm tired out of my mind, so I hope I'm sensical

1. Does someone know this link on Wizard's site, then? Looked around for it, but did not find it. It just seems like plain double dipping to me :\ Maybe mathematically speaking it works, but if a big ol' dragon's already got a 34 con, it's going to be really hard to kill him in one blow anyway, unless you're really strong, got a magical greatsword, and hit really well (crit and roll high), in which case I do think you can say "I hit the dragon in the heart. Take that, scaley!" This just be my ideas though, that completely fly in the face of game balance. I don't want combat to just be sitting and waiting for someone to get "the critical"


2&3. This is odd. Tilla, you say in SW when you would be hit for more wound damage than you have, dropping you into negative, you die. In UA, it says that any damage that would drop you to below 0 WP instead brings you to 0 WP (like ability damage). This is just bizarre in my head. If someone manages to smack you real nicely, bringing you to what should be, say, -23 WP, you make a DC --15-- Fort save to just be disabled. If you don't make it, then you go unconcious and must make a DC --10-- Fort save to become stable. That means when a commoner with 4 WP gets hit for 37 damage by a dragon, he has ZERO chance he'll die immediately. By the next round he has only 3/8 of a chance that he'll die, 3/16 of a chance that he'll be dying, 3/16 of a chance he'll be stable, and 1/4 of a chance he'll just be disabled!! Wha-?

Think I'm going to go with this. Thoughts?:
Run out of VP, go unconcious. Can state before your attack that you're doing subdual/nonlethal, and if you crit while doing so this subdual damage goes to WP. Subdual Wound damage> WP= Go unconcious. Sort of a hybrid.

Go to 0 WP (w/o getting to 0 VP first), make the save to just be disabled, else you're dying (-1) . Normal rules for taking Wound damage and what occurs while dying, except that if you remain "dying" you drop to -2 and so on until -10, where you're hella dead.

4. How's the DC calculated?

Thanks!
Eltern

P.S. I'm trying to figure out how to implement defense bonuses, armor as DR, AND Vitality/Wound points to change up the flavor of D&D, but using all three makes the flavor...really changed Does anyone have references to previous threads of when UA first came out of similar resources describing ways to handle both defense bonuses AND armor as DR? Maybe it's just not meant to be... Thanks!

 

[Eltern]

bump

Guess I just need to know how the reflex DC for falling is calculated, and if you really die at negative WP in Star Wars. I'll hunt for the mentioned link on the wizards site more myself.