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<blockquote data-quote="FitzTheRuke" data-source="post: 8675008" data-attributes="member: 59816">I'm decidedly in the camp that thinks Dread Counterspell crushes Subtle Spell, but then, I don't think that Subtle Spell should automatically work against any spellcaster of any decent level (if it were backed up by a deception check vs insight? Sure NP).I just don't think that &quot;no VSM&quot; should mean &quot;completely effortless, totally hidden spellcasting&quot;. Casting spells should be an amazing thing to do and require effort. It shouldn't be impossible for another experienced spellcaster to tell that you're doing it, even if you're not waving your arms around and yabbering in gibberish. It still takes your action. It still takes effort.#$&amp;@ing VECNA? He shouldn't have any problem at all.That said, I have no problem with a DM ruling it the other way. The rules are extremely unclear, and I wish if the designers had a particular way they mean for it (and other things like Subtle Spell itself) to work, then they should write them so that they say what they do. At any rate, we are left with &quot;it's up to your DM&quot;. IMO, that means whoever is running Vecna gets to pick, and those of us playing PCs can suck it up.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FitzTheRuke, post: 8675008, member: 59816"] I'm decidedly in the camp that thinks Dread Counterspell crushes Subtle Spell, but then, I don't think that Subtle Spell should automatically work against any spellcaster of any decent level (if it were backed up by a deception check vs insight? Sure NP). I just don't think that "no VSM" should mean "completely effortless, totally hidden spellcasting". Casting spells should be an [I]amazing thing[/I] to do and require effort. It shouldn't be impossible for another experienced spellcaster to tell that you're doing it, even if you're not waving your arms around and yabbering in gibberish. It still takes your action. It still takes effort. #$&@ing VECNA? He shouldn't have any problem at all. That said, I have no problem with a DM ruling it the other way. The rules are extremely unclear, and I wish if the designers had a particular way they [I]mean[/I] for it (and other things like Subtle Spell itself) to work, then they should write them so that they say what they do. At any rate, we are left with "it's up to your DM". IMO, that means whoever is running Vecna gets to pick, and those of us playing PCs can suck it up. [/QUOTE]

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