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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 4068283" data-attributes="member: 3087">You aren't wrong. LB said this before Diego and Biggs started saying things like"I'd like to be there when you kill Vanderchild, if that is possible.""Dude! we're the ones who are going to kill Vanderchild, along with the others who sired us. Every one. And i'm looking forward to it."I mean, if you were LB what would you do?He wants their sire's dead, he was expecting to have to do it himself, but if he has a bunch of suicidal neonates leaping over each other to do it instead of him is gonna say No?Of course not.He'll say. "That's right boys! That's the deal! You go get 'em!"Does that make sense? I mean... nobody made Biggs (or Warshrike) post that.I didn't encourage that. (at all!) I had to have a good think when he started up with the whole "I'll do it myself stuff!".But I tried to roll with it and adapt the game to match the choices that PCs make. It makes sense that neonates would make mistakes/misjudgments.[sblock=Much longer explanation, which includes a bunch of IC stuff to give more background, etc]Urg. I really, massively prefer to do things IC. But since things are sensitive now then I suppose I'll just roll with it and explain OOC.It'd be understandable as it's a bit vague basically here's the thing.LB isn't a proxy for the adventure... he's a guy. The sort of old unpleasant vampire that I think would be a prince of a city (instead of the sorts of characters that WoD usually deploys but I suppose that's another post).What does he want? He wants to be in charge, with his childer and have free reign. I.e. the status quo.So he gets into power (the players still don't know how really) and then once he's there he systematically outlaws all the sorts of things that would be a threat to him (or even just make his nights unpleasant)a) new vampiresb) new ghoulsc) new blood bondshe's also strongly discouraged people having guns and/or weaponry. He doesn't use weaponry himself, he requires that ghouls aren't armed (you notice that the "security" force in the elevator wasn't armed, not even a set of brass knuckles)[sblock=Why didn't you mention guns, etc earlier?]Honestly because I knew that people wanted to have equipment. If they'd been doing a good job they could probably have convinced LB to let them carry around some stuff for "emergencies" but if people pushed he'd have said "no guns no swords no nothing" just like for everyone else.This is one of the reasons he wasn't equipping the characters, incidentally. He doesn't keep room someplace filled with lots of guns and explosives because he doesn't use them and he doesn't want other people to use him.He doesn't own any of that.Just because he's a prince (and princes in White Wolf books always have squads of ghouls armed with heavy weaponry) doesn't necessarily mean he would.If you're have claws, would you really go around equiping people with swords? Or would you just make them use knives or their fists?If you can shrug off light weapons fire would you discourage or encourage people to have guns? Discourage right?I just doesn't make much sense for him to be giving people guns, swords, blah blah blah. A guy with just his hands isn't going to take on LB. A guy with a flame thrower might be tempted to take a shot.I confess to simulationist tendencies.[/sblock]So he's set up this restrictive regime and it's sort of worked. But, of course, a lot of kindred are upset (to one degree or another) with the rules.They're restrictive, they're different from other cities, they don't involve sharing power with people, it forces most kindred to get out and hunt more, to deal with mortals more, etc etc.So there's pressure, especially from other elders and ancilla to try to get him to roll back the restrictions. It's nicer to be on the top of the totem pole if you have a bunch of people underneath you.Of course they don't necessarily want to say "I want to embrace but only me and maybe my allies" so they try to get other kindred involved saying that LB's destroying the fabric of kindred society/power-mad/whatever.So, anyway, suddenly he has a bunch of new vampires. His inclination is to kill them, but, of course that plays into the hands of people who say that he's a power-mad autocrat.So he has to thread a bit of a needle; he has to come down hard, and punish people but look like he's being fair.  Now his original deal with Cole was: You figure out this mystery for me and I'll deal with it.If this were an adventure it would readSo he's about to offer basically the same goal to the group.LB: So I'm going to offer you this deal you...Biggs: (interrupting) I'll kill my sire for you!Diego: (interrupting) Me too!Now: If this were DnD, and LB was an LG Duke or something then he'd say "HO HO HO, that won't be necessary my young friends. Maybe when you've become more experienced..."But this is vampire. Not DnD.Now what is LB gonna do?He'll take full advantage of the PCs. Why not?If you're playing a game, and you make a choice, especially if it's an unsolicited choice (i.e. something you just came up with yourself) then I'm obliged to respect that choice.As neonate vampires you'll make bad decisions occasionally.If Biggs, or anybody, decides later that they don't want the deal then that's perfectly OK. But it's gotta be dealt with IC. You can figure out a way to renegotiate, or play dumb, or whatever.But you can't really make some OOC reason, (I.e. my sire is in Lupine terrotorry, so I guess the deal is off) and then use some sort of convoluted specious arguement to <a href="http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue10/InformationLaundering1011.html" target="_blank">information launder </a>it into the game and assert that it's a great IC reason for you to break your deal with LB.Or you can, but LB will probably just put you into torpor.Because the info isn't IC info, it's OOC info and (incidentally) it's wrong.Diego's recent scene mentioned a "Lupine War". The PCs haven't dug yet, but there was a war, the vampires won and kindred can go anywhere in the city that they want. They don't routinely go into lupine territory for the same reason that Nazi's didn't go into the Warsaw Ghetto as part of their day to day life. (or whatever, sorry it's a bad analogy but I can't think of a better one really, right now).[/sblock]</blockquote>

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