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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 4070282" data-attributes="member: 3087">You should do what Diego would do.I mean... I didn't say to War... "You're saying something you shouldn't say" or "you're promising something that's impossible".It was a cool scene, I thought.Again, though, if you swear that you're gonna kill your sire with your own hands, when the prince is talking about whether or not the prince is going to punish you for your creation or not....It's not just a one liner.You've spoken to an NPC. In this case an NPC in a position of power with their own agenda.edit: At the same time, saying that doesn't mean that the rest of the game is just the PCs trapped in a locked room and they have to kill their sire in personal combat before they can leave.I took the conversation OOC because there were many ways to wriggle out of getting into trouble for ducking Blackcoat's instructions, but that (really the only way) you couldn't do it was using some sort of OOC excuse.Or at least it would have lead to getting into boring, story stopping trouble.I should probably just have left the whole thing alone.[sblock=Tangent about combat and power]This is purely a random statement, but the most powerful thing in a roleplaying game is an action.In nWoD every character gets one action a round. And there is no more "soaking" (i.e. if you damage someone, then you damage them -- there are almost no cases where a success on an attack role can be negated by the foe).So, if the group gets into combat with a single opponent that person will go once to the group's five actions. (and can spend 5 blood points a turn, 5 willpower points a turn, etc).And, if you think about the group as an organ, it doesn't really degrade in potency (i.e. lose actions) until a character drops or stops fighting (i.e. it's taken minimum 7 health levels ....)If you apply the math: assume that everyone in the group has combat pool of 5 or so. The foe has a defense of 3 (which removes six dice). That's 19 dice. The mean number of successes is around 7 (with 10-again). Average health for a normal character? 7 health levels. That's going to add up fast, even if you're fighting someone who can spend multiple blood points a round.Of course if they have celerity 2 then you're rolling 3 chance dice and 6 regular dice.But some members of the group would probably get a lot more dice (Cole with a shotgun is in the 9-10 range, so is Biggs with melee).It's situational.I'm not saying that you *should* kill your sires, or that you *shouldn't* or "it'd be easy" or that it's even possible (or isn't possible) for the group to actually kill all their sires this in this case (i.e. for Archer, Beth, Biggs, Cole and Diego to kill Celeste, Constance, and whoever else) or anything like that. I'm just speaking generally.And, generally speaking I think it's true that, depending on die rolls, a group of five neonates could take on a reasonably powerful kindred and destroy them.Again this is OOC. IC you're characters may very well believe that it's totally impossible to kill a powerful vampire.The only vampires people have faced in combat (Blackcoat really) is specifically designed to be a combat monster. Her melee die pool is very large, she has multiple dots in a Fighting Style and has plowed a big chunk of her xp into combat disciplines. And she's very good at one-on-one.Could the PCs as a group take her?Normally I'd say no way. But if she was low on blood, and the fight started with someone throwing a grenade at her?The scope of possible results are large. Some of them involve the PCs "winning" i.e. driving her off. A smaller set involve the possibility of the group "winning outright" and driving her into torpor (celerity eats blood points, if she falls into a hunger frenzy she'll start trying to drink blood instead of defending herself, trying to grapple and drink in a fight with multiple supernaturals is very inefficient, you can only drink one point a round, etc).So if the question is "do the PCs, as a group, have -no- chance of killing a powerful vampire?"The answer is: No. There is some chance. Even without talking about sunlight, or fire or what have you.As an OOC statement I do prefer this. The PCs are relevant.There are not many situations where a group of vampire PCs could just be ignored by someone nearby them because they weren't a threat. (There are a few throbbing exceptions of course -- but this tangent is long enough already).[/sblock]Noted.As the game was presented originally as a "investigative/role playing scenario" you could reasonably expect it would not solely involve a series of linear search and destroy missions.I do want characters (and players) to feel like their pushing their respective stories forward. Right now the game emphasis is a bit more on getting people into the world, etc etc.But, I also feel like I owe the group a degree of flexibility.If Biggs (or whoever) announces that he wants to kill their sires and everyone goes along then that has the potential to change the game.It's an RPG after all.Game reality has to flex to accommodate the actions the players have the PC's take.</blockquote>

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