Waking an Unconsious Ally

[dpico]

Last night I was DM'ing a sesssion and the party was facing a Oni Night Haunter. The Oni hit a few of the pary member with Hypnotic Breath. Hypnotic Breath dazes the target and then upon a failed save, the target falls unconsious (no save). One of the PC's failed her save and fell unconsious. The party referenced the following rule:

Quote:
When you’re asleep, you’re unconscious (see “Conditions,”
page 277). You wake up if you take damage or if
you make a successful Perception check (with a –5 penalty)
to hear sounds of danger. An ally can wake you
up by shaking you (a standard action) or by shouting (a
free action).

They basically said a free action shout by another party member would wake the character. Is this correct? This make sense when you are asleep but it does not make sense to me when you magically unconsious. What is the proper ruling?

Thank you

 

[Jack99]

First of all, the Oni's power has been errataed, and is now (save ends). Aside from that, you wake up by a shout when you are sleeping, not unconcious. You need to be damaged or make your save to wake up. Unless of course the power indicates otherwise (such as the sleep spell)

 

[Pbartender]

Aside from that, you wake up by a shout when you are sleeping, not unconcious. You need to be damaged or make your save to wake up.

Out of curiousity, do you have a page number for that rule?

 

[Mephistopheles]

Quote:
When you’re asleep, you’re unconscious (see “Conditions,”
page 277). You wake up if you take damage or if
you make a successful Perception check (with a –5 penalty)
to hear sounds of danger. An ally can wake you
up by shaking you (a standard action) or by shouting (a
free action).

They basically said a free action shout by another party member would wake the character. Is this correct? This make sense when you are asleep but it does not make sense to me when you magically unconsious. What is the proper ruling?

Just because you are unconscious when sleeping it does not follow that you are sleeping when unconscious. The quoted rule does not apply. (On a tangent, the Sleep power does not put targets to sleep, it renders them unconscious.)

Out of curiousity, do you have a page number for that rule?

I cannot find a general rule for it; looking at a few powers that render targets unconscious may help.

Knockout (Rogue Attack 9) says "If the unconscious target takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.", which reads as though it is applied specifically for targets made unconscious by this power.

Garrote Grip (Rogue Attack 15) says "If an unconscious target takes takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.", which could be read as though it is applied specifically for targets made unconscious by this power or to the unconscious condition in general. I'd go with the former considering the source.

Without further clarification I'd argue that unconscious targets are roused by damage only if the attack that applied the effect says so - arguing otherwise makes the clauses from the two powers listed above redundant, particularly when considering the exception based design of 4E.

 

[Starfox]

What allies CAN do in this case is to use the Heal skill (or other abilities) to grant an additional saving throw.

 

[Pbartender]

The errata clearly fixes this specific problem, by adding the save.

However...

First of all, the Oni's power has been errataed, and is now (save ends). Aside from that, you wake up by a shout when you are sleeping, not unconcious.

Just because you are unconscious when sleeping it does not follow that you are sleeping when unconscious. The quoted rule does not apply. (On a tangent, the Sleep power does not put targets to sleep, it renders them unconscious.)

The Oni Night Haunter's Hypnotic Breath power does have the "Sleep" descriptor...

Hypnotic Breath (standard; recharges when first bloodied) ✦ Charm, Sleep
Close blast 5; +11 vs. Will; the target is dazed (save ends). First Failed Save: The target falls unconscious (no save).​

Compare to the Wizard's Sleep spell.

The rule for waking a sleeping target should apply normally.

What allies CAN do in this case is to use the Heal skill (or other abilities) to grant an additional saving throw.

Which would be fine, if there had been a saving throw allowed. The pre-errata Night Haunter doesn't allow one.

 

[Tuft]

Which would be fine, if there had been a saving throw allowed. The pre-errata Night Haunter doesn't allow one.

The Heal skill, as per p.185 of the PH: "Grant a Saving Throw: Make a DC 15 Heal check. If you succeed, an adjacent ally can immediately make a saving throw [...]".

If you "grant" a saving throw, does it mean that you get the saving throw itself (i.e. where none existed before), or just another roll on an existing saving throw? What does grant mean in this context? I'm not a native english speaker, but to me grant sounds like "permitted something you are not normally permitted"...

 

[webrunner]

The Heal skill, as per p.185 of the PH: "Grant a Saving Throw: Make a DC 15 Heal check. If you succeed, an adjacent ally can immediately make a saving throw [...]".

If you "grant" a saving throw, does it mean that you get the saving throw itself (i.e. where none existed before), or just another roll on an existing saving throw? What does grant mean in this context? I'm not a native english speaker, but to me grant sounds like "permitted something you are not normally permitted"...

Being granted a saving throw allows you an extra chance to save against an effect that a save can end (and often outside of the normal - if it's ongoing damage and before your turn you can avoid taking damage entirely, for instance)

However, there's no reason to believe that it adds "save ends" to an effect that doesn't already have it.

 

[CapnZapp]

If I understand it correctly, there is no general rule for sleeping and/or being unconscious (regarding waking up, that is).

I can easily see a power that renders people unconscious in a way where you can't simply wake them up by shaking them, pouring cold water on them and so on.

So I think trying to use circumstances specific to individual powers to apply to the general picture is not helpful.

 

[Tuft]

However, there's no reason to believe that it adds "save ends" to an effect that doesn't already have it.

Why is that? If a genie grants you a wish, you do get something new, not an extra shot at a previous one...