Walking with Dragons (Update 1/28/2004)

[RavinRay]

Hi all,

I'm a paleontologist so my initial comments will be limited to draconic evolution. As you can see Alan already has quite some info about that. I have my own take on this, and I may agree or disagree with Alan. Just let me read through all his posts before I can react. I'll also try to say something about lesser dragons and those which do not have the "standard" physiognomy of four legs and wings, notablly dragon turtlers and lung wang.

 

[RavinRay]

I've decided to put my reactions from several posts into a single message because they all deal with evolution. I hope this doesn't tangle up the threads of discussion. If it is please let me know.

All quoted material are from Alan.

How dragons came to be six-limbed vertebrates is still a matter of some dispute. Recent genetic studies have indicated a connection with those genes involved in embryological development. But we don’t yet know enough to say exactly what happened.

It is possible to explain this as a duplication of the forelimb genes. A second pair of forelimbs would appear just behind the first pair. With some rearrangement to place it more dorsally located, and subsequent mutations, it should acquire a bat-like appearance.

In discussing the development of the proto-dragon, an essential part would be the transition from gliding to powered flight. All known flying vertebrates (birds, bats, and pterosaurs) are presumed to have gone through a gliding stage. At one point or another the proto-dragon's incipient wings should have been sufficiently developed to allow it to glide. We have many examples of this both in the fossil record and in modern animals; but the most tantalizing are the flying lizards of SE Asia (where I live). These six-inch reptiles glide with membranes supported by modified ribs that can unfold to their sides. Incidentally, they are given the genus Draco.

In Gondwana proto-dragons remained relatively small predators and scavengers. In Laurasia they became something very different.

If lesser dragons exist in your world like the pseudodragon and wyvern, it would be a neat scenario if they evolved from the Gondwana proto-dragons that remained at a "lower" level of draconic evolution.

The other form dragon scales take is that of the feather. While technically not the same as lung or bird feathers, that is the role these scales take, and so the form they assume.

Feathers are actually considered to be derived from scales so there shouldn't be a problem with dragons having feathery scales. Even some dinosaurs are suspected to have "proto-feathers." So dragonfeathers are different structurally from bird feathers. A case of convergent evolution.

I agree with you on energy resistance instead of energy immunity. I like to think that a red or gold dragon is immune to fire save dragonfire, silver and white immune cold except dragoncold, etc. That's how I made my dragons.

Alan, in your world the crystal dragon is descended from a white dragon subspecies. In my world, the chromatic, gem, and metallic families are preserved, so that the crystal dragon's closest relatives are other gem dragons. Our different worlds have taken divergent paths of evolution. Plus, I don't call them crystal dragons formally (only as a nickname). I call them zircon dragons, because zircons are commonly thought of as white/colorless, and have a pretty low value (to match the zircon/crystal dragon's position in the gem dragon hierarchy). Crystal is not a gemstone name (except in antiquity for colorless quartz).

I've started my own dragon family tree using the thumbnails of WotC art galleries in Adobe Illustrator. It includes all the true dragons plus most of the lesser dragons. When it is finished I'll tell you.

 

[mythusmage]

Dragon Psychology

Dragon Psychology

The most important thing to remember when dealing with dragons is, they are the apex predator. And they know it. As the song goes, dragons are large and in charge. It’s not a matter of arrogance, a dragon is simply supremely self-confident. Should you ever meet a subservient dragon you can be certain that behind the bowing and scraping you have one very amused dracos

This doesn’t mean that dragons don’t have psychological problems. Hoarding is a big problem. Not just treasure and shiny baubles, one of the most famous cases of draconic hoarding involved, of all things, twigs. Twigs from every type of tree found on Earth, and a few from other realities and dimensions (including one innocuous looking twig that killed 15 people and 6 fiends before finally being destroyed).

Dragons are also known for getting obsessed. It’s been said that every dragon is mildly obsessed about something (dragons disagree), but there are rare cases where a wyrm will get positively fixated upon a subject. Probably the most famous case was that of the red dragon Charleton of Kern County, California. Charleton collected semi-precious stones, and used them to create a diorama of Kern County complete down to individual buildings, vehicles, and people. It involved meticulous planning, the photographing of the county over the period of 150 years, and enough release forms (so Charleton could construct representations of the people he photographed) to insulate a small building. At the time of his death from a cerebral hemorrhage Charleton was 90% complete with his project, and researching spells that would allow him to animate the diorama. The Charleton Foundation (formed to carry on his work) is still trying to recreate the dweomers he used to create his life-like figures out of often friable crystals

Probably the worst psychological problem dragons have is insecurity. Fortunately it is rare, but it can be devastating. A dragon with the condition suffers from the delusion that he is a tiny little beast living in a world full of enormous monsters ready to eat him. Most retreat from the world and live in seclusion, but a rare few have gone on a rampage with the goal of ridding the world of what they fear.

Older dragons sometimes develop a form of clinical depression. Fortunately this is transitory, and is very amenable to treatment with anti-depressants and therapy. Dragons never become manic depressive or manic. Classic scizophrenia is also unknown, but dragons do develop some of the more obscure varieties of the disease.

Dragons do love their comforts. When establishing a lair or den most every dragon has a special sleeping platform built. The platform is constructed of a good quality softwood and stands about 20 feet tall. The wood is polished, lacquered, and enspelled so the dragon’s claws don’t dig in. When a dragon is home most everything is done from the platform, unless the task requires the dragon’s physical presence.

At the same time dragons are curious. Most anything can pique their interest, and sometimes they can become obsessed with learning all they can about it. The fact Alexander V of Makedon (The Great) was a closet heterosexual (something he hid thanks to societal pressures and the need to bond certain Makedonian nobles to his cause) is known to us thanks to a three day interview he gave to the copper dragon Arthenos of Thessaly. These days you’re sure to find dragons involved in research of all sorts, with the teaching staff of the Academy of Magic on the planet Pluto being predominatly draconic.

One could go into more detail regarding dragon psychology (and in the rewrite I probably will), but this should give you a good idea of what dragons are like mentally.

The next installment will deal with child rearing. Here, I think, you’ll find the dragons of Dragon Earth very different from the standard d20 System dragon

 

[mythusmage]

Child Rearing

Dragons are egg-layers, producing 3 or 4 eggs a clutch. The nest is always placed in a lair excavated in firm ground or soft rock, though white dragons have denned in snow bank while red and silver dragons with the requisite magics have excavated lairs in hard rock. At hatching the young are usually about 18” in length, with ready appetites.

Adolescent and old dragon mothers usually raise their young on their own. Mature and middle age dragons as mated couples. For this reason the former group tend to have fewer young survive to the age of majority. In some species an adolescent’s mother may assist, but even among such as gold and green dragons this is not universal. Unless something happens most dragons are raised until they reach maturity at the age of 25. There are exceptions.

The young are taught how to hunt, appraise valuables and potential valuables, the practice of magic as performed by dragons and non-dragons, and how to behave around both dragons and non-dragons. Especially the last, now that humans have gotten it into their heads that they’re running things, while elves have always been a bit, well...

Discipline is tough. A wilding dragon is not in anybody’s best interest, and could cause problems with the non-dragon community. Even copper and topaz dragons have been known to kill an especially troublesome child. Punishments are aimed at instilling one simple lesson, “You don’t do that sort of thing, period.”

At the same time dragons almost always kill a child that has a deformity or gross disability. With the exception of red dragons. They are in the habit of sparing a mildly retarded child. Considering such good luck charms and a special blessing. Red dragons will not talk about this practice. Or about why they won’t talk about the practice.

Dragons believe in reincarnation. They hold that being born a dragon is the last step before advancing to the status of celestial being. Elf, dwarf, human, kobold, then dragon is the usual progression. Elves don’t appreciate the humor in this.

Given that life as a dragon is supposed to be the last step before advancing to life in Heaven, dragons don’t think it’s right for somebody to be stuck in a defective body. Rather than be so cruel, they kill the child so the soul can then be placed in a healthy body.

As noted before, red dragons are an exception. They believe that mildly retarded red dragon children are a special gift they are entrusted with. They provide love and care for the child, mourn when the youngster dies (such children almost never live past 15 years of age, with none getting much past 18), and celebrate the deceased’s rise to the highest ranks of the celestial hierarchy. There is evidence red dragons are right.

With all that said it must be noted that dragons are fierce, dedicated parents. Dragons have been known to lay down their lives for their young. Prospective baby-sitters are followed for years before being approached with a job offer. Someone’s thirteen year old daughter gets approached by a blue dragon mother to watch her kids, it is an honor of the highest order.

It should also be noted that dragons follow the affairs of their children for centuries. Grandparents, great-grandparents, even great-great-grandparents are known to ‘assist’ their descendents. Nothing blatant of course, they prefer to help from behind the scene. Though some ancestors are better at it than others.

Dragons usually have their clutches about 20 years apart. That way they can devote their attentions to the latest generation. When population density is low they are known to have them as close together as a clutch every five years. Under high population density the gaps between clutches can be as long as a century or more.

(On that note I end this installment. It is a rough draft after all, and so could use a bit of reorganization and rewriting. As with the previous entries this is presented as an example of what’s going into the book. Your comments and suggest would be a great help.

(When next I post we’ll be taking a look at dragon life stages.)

(In case you’re wondering, I decided to make Dragon Earth dragon infants of a size since the various species are so closely related. So instead of tiny little black dragon infants and huge, enormous (comparatively) gold dragon infants, they’re pretty much of a size now. They do grow at different rates on the other hand, so a 10 year old gold dragon is typically substantially larger than the 10 year old black dragon.)

 

[mythusmage]

It is possible to explain this as a duplication of the forelimb genes.

Makes sense to me. Though further down the trunk so the mid-limbs don't interfere with the fore-limbs. With a subsequent migration of the mid-limbs up and forward as they became dedicated to flight.

In discussing the development of the proto-dragon, an essential part would be the transition from gliding to powered flight.

I avoid this by having that part lost in the mists of time. That is, nobody's found remains of gliding proto-dragons, and blind time-scrying is hazardous in the extreme. Still, it may be so. I shall not dismiss it as a possibility.

If lesser dragons exist in your world like the pseudodragon and wyvern, it would be a neat scenario if they evolved from the Gondwana proto-dragons that remained at a "lower" level of draconic evolution.

There's an idea. Consider it adopted. But, it won't include the wyvern. I'll be making the wyvern an advanced pterodactyl much as the modern day cornesaur is an advanced hadrosaur. And, yes the wyvern will be evolved from the bird-like pterodactyls rather than the more familiar bat-like.

BTW, have you seen the Scientific American article on bird feathers. Turns out they're not derived from cornified skin as once thought. It might be up at the Scientific American site.

Alan, in your world the crystal dragon is descended from a white dragon subspecies. In my world, the chromatic, gem, and metallic families are preserved, so that the crystal dragon's closest relatives are other gem dragons.

It made sense to me. Plus, I don't use alignment on Dragon Earth. I adopted allegiances from d20 modern instead. So gold and copper dragons can be more closely related to red and topaz dragons than they are to silver dragons. Who, by the way, are more closely related to white and crystal dragons.

When you have your family tree ready I'd be interested in seeing it. If Morrus and crew don't mind you could try posting it here for others to enjoy.

In the meantime I have family trees of both dragons and lung to do. Compared to the lung the modern dragon family tree is rather simple. The lung family tree gets involved and includes sphinxes, pegasi, lammasu, and dragon turtles among others. Never knew the pegasus is second cousin to the freshwater crocodile now did you?

Thanks for your insight and suggestions.

 

[RavinRay]

...I'll be making the wyvern an advanced pterodactyl much as the modern day cornesaur is an advanced hadrosaur. And, yes the wyvern will be evolved from the bird-like pterodactyls rather than the more familiar bat-like.

A pterosaur-based wyvern? Hmmm, very intriguing. It would imply the elongation of the other phalanges to support the wing. There are two groups of pterosaurs: the long-tailed, toothed, smaller rhamphorhynchs; and the short-tailed, mostly toothless, generally bigger pterodactyls. Choosing the former as the wyvern ancestor would account for it's teeth and tail; but it would have had to undergo a tremendous increase in size paralleling that of the pterodactyls.

...Compared to the lung the modern dragon family tree is rather simple. The lung family tree gets involved and includes sphinxes, pegasi, lammasu, and dragon turtles among others. Never knew the pegasus is second cousin to the freshwater crocodile now did you?

I'm curious to know how to account for the lung wang and dragon turtle, as you say that the lung family tree is less straightforward. It's a safe guess that they are each other's closest relatives; but did they evolve from true turtles (say like the giant Archelon of the Late Cretaceous seas); from a turtle relative (procolophonids and pareiasaurs are purported to be turtle relatives); from another armor-bearing thecodont (like the somewhat flattended and distended aetosaurs); or from another reptile altogether? A subgroup of the placodonts, which are more closely related to the plesiosaurs, independently evolved a shell, though the details are different.

Li lung and sphinxes, lammasu (and why not shedu as well - oh wait, they're equine not leonine) form a group huh? What about pegasi and shedu?

I like to think of the relationship between true and lesser dragons as similar to that between hominoids (apes and humans) and monkeys. While apes and monkeys both belong to the anthropoid suborder of the Primates order, apes have evolved to a higher level than monkeys. Hence the words ape and monkey should not be interchanged, even though they sometimes are in common usage. Likewise, true dragons evolved to a higher level unattained by lesser dragons, whichever ones exist on your particular worlds. A pseudodragon, no matter how clever it may be and how closely it resembles a true dragon, can never attain (on its own) the level of superiority any true dragon has.

 

[mythusmage]

A pterosaur-based wyvern? Hmmm, very intriguing. It would imply the elongation of the other phalanges to support the wing. There are two groups of pterosaurs: the long-tailed, toothed, smaller rhamphorhynchs; and the short-tailed, mostly toothless, generally bigger pterodactyls. Choosing the former as the wyvern ancestor would account for it's teeth and tail; but it would have had to undergo a tremendous increase in size paralleling that of the pterodactyls.

Of course, since I invented two thecodont lines as ancestors of dragons and lung respectively, I could invent another (unknown to us) pterosaur line.

I expect the same thing that allowed for the increase in size among dragons, the li lung, and the sphinxes etc. could account for the great size of the typical wyvern

I'm curious to know how to account for the lung wang and dragon turtle, as you say that the lung family tree is less straightforward. It's a safe guess that they are each other's closest relatives; but did they evolve from true turtles (say like the giant Archelon of the Late Cretaceous seas); from a turtle relative (procolophonids and pareiasaurs are purported to be turtle relatives); from another armor-bearing thecodont (like the somewhat flattended and distended aetosaurs); or from another reptile altogether? A subgroup of the placodonts, which are more closely related to the plesiosaurs, independently evolved a shell, though the details are different.

Here's a quick breakdown of the lung family tree.

The lung are divided into two broad groups, the earth dragons (li lung) and the serpent dragons (serpent lung (I don't know the Cantonese for serpent, sorry)) (What is the grouping above family? I can't seem to remember it right now.)

The earth dragons are divided into the following families (with species listed in parentheses): Li lung (one species (li lung) in one genus), sphinxes (one species (sphinx) in one genus), pegasi (two species (pegasus and shedu) in two genera), and griffin (three species (griffin, hieracosphinx, and hippogriff) in two genera (1 and 2/3)).

The serpent lung are divided into four families: The spirit lung (three species (pan, shen, and t'ien) in one genus), sea lung (two species (chiang and tun mi) in two genera), lung wang (one species (lung wang) in one genus), and dragon turtle (one species (dragon turtle) in one genus).

The lung wang, chiang lung, and dragon turtle are descended from a common ancestor. A beast that split off from the ancestor of the spirit lung a long time ago. The tun mi lung is a direct descendent of the chiang lung.

True lung and lesser lung are distinguished by the fact that the true lung go through a yu lung (carp dragon) stage whereas the lesser lung do not. This amuses dragon turtles no end.

("Fishing for Junior! The exciting new lung wang game show where prospective parents go angling for their young!" Dragon turtle humor.)

Li lung and sphinxes, lammasu (and why not shedu as well - oh wait, they're equine not leonine) form a group huh? What about pegasi and shedu?

See above.

I like to think of the relationship between true and lesser dragons as similar to that between hominoids (apes and humans) and monkeys. While apes and monkeys both belong to the anthropoid suborder of the Primates order, apes have evolved to a higher level than monkeys. Hence the words ape and monkey should not be interchanged, even though they sometimes are in common usage. Likewise, true dragons evolved to a higher level unattained by lesser dragons, whichever ones exist on your particular worlds. A pseudodragon, no matter how clever it may be and how closely it resembles a true dragon, can never attain (on its own) the level of superiority any true dragon has.

Good point. I do see certain types of lesser dragons as being more like flying foxes vis a vis simians than monkeys vis a vis apes. In the case of something like a pseudo or faerie dragon, the relationship is more like that between prosimians and simians. In the case of the lung, they produced a degree of radiation dragons and primates weren't able to. Thus such creatures as pegasi and hieracosphinx.

BTW, could you come up with a few suffixes to apply to extinct dragons and lung (etc.)? You know, like 'suchus' for fossil crocodilians and 'opteryx' for fossil birds, only for fossil dragons, proto-dragons, lung, and the like. Family, genus, and species names would be nice as well.

(Other readers of this post are welcome to join in. However, 'dracos' is already taken and 'draco' (I think) violates a few rules. BTW, the study of dragons is known as dracontology. Because 'dracontology' is the proper form the word takes. (According to William Stoddard, author of GURPS Steampunk.)

 

[RavinRay]

BTW, could you come up with a few suffixes to apply to extinct dragons and lung (etc.)? You know, like 'suchus' for fossil crocodilians and 'opteryx' for fossil birds, only for fossil dragons, proto-dragons, lung, and the like. Family, genus, and species names would be nice as well.

From my limited knowledge of Latin and Greek:

-dracus for dragon
Sino- for Chinese
-chelon for turtle
Phosphoro- for eastern
Hespero- for western
Ornitho- or Avi- or -avis for bird
Ophidio- for snake

So, this would make for names like:

Sinodrachelon for the Lung wang
Drachelon for the dragon turtle
Dracophidius for serpent lung

Well, this would be a start at least.

 

[RavinRay]

I hate these erratic connections that make me re-post messages. What a waste of space. Oh well, I'll just replace them with more names to make up for it...

 

[RavinRay]

Triple post. I'll just put in more affixes later.