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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TerraDave" data-source="post: 6246280" data-attributes="member: 22260">KM: "Chaotic neutral" is greyhawk specific? You really believe that?I would say chaotic neutral is D&D because its in a bunch of D&D books that are not greyhawk specific. And used in a bunch of peoples campaigns that are not greyhawk. And pre dates greyhawk as a publication and as a world, at least as we would now think of it. Its hard actually understand your argument. But you keep saying the same thing over and over again. In fact there is a good chance that you will just repeat exactly the same thing again after this post.But I am trying to understand the various errors that seem to lie behind you saying it over and over again. I will make one last attempt.1) You seem to conflate Gygax with Greyhawk. Gygax was a person who co-created D&D and created many of the things that remained core to it. Greyhawk was a castle, dungeon, and city were he set his games, and later became a "world" so that TSR could publish and make money from it. It had no cosmology specific to it, but used what was then the D&D cosmology, eventually. Its true that Gygax created that cosmology, with some input from others, because he was the main designer on the game at that time. Its not true that he just had this home campaign were he did this stuff in and then just stuck it into D&D. From what we know about planar and other worldly matters in his own game that is definitely not the case. 2) You seem to conflate a bunch of campaign worlds with Greyhawk. Lots of campaigns where the words Greyhawk, Oerth, or Flaennies (sic) were never ever used have had abyssal demons. Some were official settings. More importantly, most were peoples home games. They were not playing "Greyhawk". They sure as <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> were not playing FR. Its offensive to say that they were. Or using its specific cosmology. They had abyssal demons because they were playing D&D.3) You don't seem to understand the liberty people have with their own D&D games. Now, when I mentioned this above, you ignored it so you could just repeat yourself, but I will elaborate. You can play D&D without demons, or blue dragons, or gnomes. Duh. You always could. Some of the most widely used sets of D&D rules do not have the word "demon" in them. You can always say demons of the outer darkness or Fresno or whatever. But when when demons have appeared, in the core rules, they were abyssal. Thats the default. It could be changed in a particular campaign--including published ones, which you seem to be obsessed with, but if someone uses the D&D defualt, demons are from the abyss. 4) Given 3, you seem to think D&D is a generic FRPG, without elements more specific to it and created from it. This is patently untrue.</blockquote>

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