D&D 5E Wandering Monsters 1/15/14: Reinventing the Great Wheel
AntiStateQuixote
Enemy of the State
Emphasis mine.James Wyatt said:
James, how will you stop me from designing my own cosmological system?
The Great Wheel always bothered me in a "it's too symmetrical and pretty" kind of way, but I didn't really care. I was never a Planescape fan (mid/late 90s was my gaming nadir). Most of my games rarely did much plane hopping so it rarely mattered. D&D 4e changed that. The 4e cosmology is my preferred "official" cosmology, and likely something very close to it will be the basis of most campaigns I run in the future.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
My opinions are quite positive!
Overall, this is a pretty big step up from One True Cosmology that Wyatt and Mearls had talked about before. The overall message is one of inclusiveness, and that is fabulous. If the 5e DMG basically includes his closing paragraphs about how cosmologies can be very different beasts, I'll get some warm fuzzies, even if they completely ignore it in their development efforts (and it doesn't seem like they would, given this article...so, awesome!).
I think I can tease out a bit of the disconnect I have when I see Wyatt talking about the problems with having this rich, evocative, multifaceted multiverse of dynamic, interesting otherworlds:
The Blood War isn't an important element of D&D. It's an important element of Planescape (and possibly by extension Greyhawk).
Demons coming from the Abyss isn't a D&D trope, it's a Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms and Planescape trope.
D&D is so much bigger than those settings which gave it its shape, and we don't need to be tightly tethered to those legacies (though we certainly should use them as examples of what you can do).
These elements have contexts that are local and specific. The Blood War is important in Planescape because it re-iterates Planescape themes (like the tension between order and chaos and the ambiguity of evil). The Abyss is a little more omnipresent, but it's still ultimately about the settings that employ it. And if you're not playing in PS or in a particularly planar version of GH, why the heck would you even need Bytopia? It's like saying gnomes are from Zilargo, so we need a Zilargo in every D&D game.
In a functional way, all the PC's know is that the demons come from beyond this world, from a place of evil. Call that the Twelve Hours of Night or the Abyss or the Dark Pit or the Elemental Chaos or whatever. The important thing is that the explanation meshes with the world of your game. If you're playing an Egyptian-themed game, the Abyss doesn't make sense. Since that Egyptian game is D&D, too, D&D doesn't necessarily = a certain origin for demons.
And if you're not playing in Planescape or Greyhawk or Faerun or whatever? Well, lucky you, you get to pick where demons might come from, if it ever comes up, using it as a way to customize your game. Maybe you pick the Abyss. Maybe you pick the Twelve Hours of Night and marry it with the worship of Asmodeus. Maybe they are spawned from the Nightlands in the north where the taint of evil spreads.
So now the only concern I have is about the tenacity of the default. I'm generally cool with the Great Wheel being kind of what the spells and monsters use for the first release -- if only because D&D has presumed Greyhawk even if it didn't mean to, in a lot of ways, so it GH has wormed its way into nearly everywhere else. But if they release Eberron 5e and it doesn't have the Orrey, or if they release a Nentir Vale setting for 5e and it doesn't have the World Axis, if they somehow feel the need to cram the Great Wheel into every corner of everywhere, it'll be a problem. It'll be a little like 2e's "Planescape everywhere!" all over again. And that's not great!
The article allays many of my fears, though. The only remnants are concerns for the future and a hope that they're not going to be monolithic.
And, again, just to emphasize the point, GREYHAWK/FORGOTTEN REALMS/PLANESCAPE LORE IS NOT D&D LORE, LET US NOT CONFUSE THE TWO!
Overall, this is a pretty big step up from One True Cosmology that Wyatt and Mearls had talked about before. The overall message is one of inclusiveness, and that is fabulous. If the 5e DMG basically includes his closing paragraphs about how cosmologies can be very different beasts, I'll get some warm fuzzies, even if they completely ignore it in their development efforts (and it doesn't seem like they would, given this article...so, awesome!).
I think I can tease out a bit of the disconnect I have when I see Wyatt talking about the problems with having this rich, evocative, multifaceted multiverse of dynamic, interesting otherworlds:
James Wyatt said:
The Blood War isn't an important element of D&D. It's an important element of Planescape (and possibly by extension Greyhawk).
Demons coming from the Abyss isn't a D&D trope, it's a Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms and Planescape trope.
D&D is so much bigger than those settings which gave it its shape, and we don't need to be tightly tethered to those legacies (though we certainly should use them as examples of what you can do).
These elements have contexts that are local and specific. The Blood War is important in Planescape because it re-iterates Planescape themes (like the tension between order and chaos and the ambiguity of evil). The Abyss is a little more omnipresent, but it's still ultimately about the settings that employ it. And if you're not playing in PS or in a particularly planar version of GH, why the heck would you even need Bytopia? It's like saying gnomes are from Zilargo, so we need a Zilargo in every D&D game.
In a functional way, all the PC's know is that the demons come from beyond this world, from a place of evil. Call that the Twelve Hours of Night or the Abyss or the Dark Pit or the Elemental Chaos or whatever. The important thing is that the explanation meshes with the world of your game. If you're playing an Egyptian-themed game, the Abyss doesn't make sense. Since that Egyptian game is D&D, too, D&D doesn't necessarily = a certain origin for demons.
And if you're not playing in Planescape or Greyhawk or Faerun or whatever? Well, lucky you, you get to pick where demons might come from, if it ever comes up, using it as a way to customize your game. Maybe you pick the Abyss. Maybe you pick the Twelve Hours of Night and marry it with the worship of Asmodeus. Maybe they are spawned from the Nightlands in the north where the taint of evil spreads.
So now the only concern I have is about the tenacity of the default. I'm generally cool with the Great Wheel being kind of what the spells and monsters use for the first release -- if only because D&D has presumed Greyhawk even if it didn't mean to, in a lot of ways, so it GH has wormed its way into nearly everywhere else. But if they release Eberron 5e and it doesn't have the Orrey, or if they release a Nentir Vale setting for 5e and it doesn't have the World Axis, if they somehow feel the need to cram the Great Wheel into every corner of everywhere, it'll be a problem. It'll be a little like 2e's "Planescape everywhere!" all over again. And that's not great!
The article allays many of my fears, though. The only remnants are concerns for the future and a hope that they're not going to be monolithic.
And, again, just to emphasize the point, GREYHAWK/FORGOTTEN REALMS/PLANESCAPE LORE IS NOT D&D LORE, LET US NOT CONFUSE THE TWO!
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ExploderWizard
Hero
Well. Hard to argue that there isn't any interest in Next. I clicked on the article link and got a SERVER IS TOO BUSY message. I suppose thats good right?
OK got through. Second time is the charm.
I really don't mind whatever cosmology is offered as a default so long as guidelines for designing your own are included.
Oh, and Darkunder? Man, that place sounds more awful than Shadytown.
OK got through. Second time is the charm.
I really don't mind whatever cosmology is offered as a default so long as guidelines for designing your own are included.
Oh, and Darkunder? Man, that place sounds more awful than Shadytown.
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Savage Wombat
Hero
I don't know if this is so much inclusiveness as "we're going to use the Great Wheel IP, but make it so that you don't have to because we know that's what our customers want". But it's OK, and I'm a PSer anyway.
I wonder if the point of the article is "We're going to try to avoid mentioning the planes in the Monster Manual at all, so the only thing you need to worry about is what we put in the Outer Planes section of the DMG and whatever Planar book we eventually publish."
I wonder if the point of the article is "We're going to try to avoid mentioning the planes in the Monster Manual at all, so the only thing you need to worry about is what we put in the Outer Planes section of the DMG and whatever Planar book we eventually publish."
I think the book should focus on one cosmology because we really don't need the book to tell us how to make our own.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Except for those who would like help from the book they're buying on how to make their own. You know, like a guide, for DMs.
Why do you honestly need a guide? Creating a cosmology would be considered an advanced level task amd by then, you shouldn't need a book to tell you how.
That's a fabulous idea! They should really make one of those!
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Why would I need help doing an advanced level task?
I don't "need" a book for it, XunValdorl. I want a book for it. I like the books I buy for D&D to be helpful when I attempt advanced level tasks. I think it's one of the more useful things a DM's Guide can offer.
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