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Wandering Monsters 1/15/14: Reinventing the Great Wheel
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6248713" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>It says more about me that I don't need many many demons in the book? Sure. While it may seem plain to say that if I don't use elves in my games that I don't need 8 varieties of them in the book. This might seem obvious to an extent. But it is not what I'm actually saying. I'm saying I rarely use elves (or demons as I actually said) but think that for space concerns I think they should pick a single type to start and allow others to be labeled as different types in other materials (preferably later MMs or setting books). I'm saying I understand the need for a default, even recognizing the default effect and that people won't necessarily go looking for further products. That is the price you pay, you also seem to understand this. WotC certainly does too. Given that they have said they are using a great wheel setup it seems as though they have their default. Even the default in 4e would have been fine, as long as it didn't eliminate too many things from other systems. People are smart enough to realize that kender, while taking the place of halflings in a setting, are not halflings, and so if you provide (in the MM/PHB/wherever) a source for <em>halflings</em> then there is no problem if they don't resemble kender. The problem is when you try to give kender AS the default halfling, using the kender description in place of the halfling one. Please note that I don't think you are advocating for this. I think that WotC did this to an extent in 4e, to its detriment.</p><p></p><p></p><p>First, I think it is important to note, for the actual 5e MM, that you don't have to say <strong>blood war</strong> anywhere in the book. Doesn't have to be raised in any extent. Having the great wheel basis does NOT mean you have to have a blood war or any planescape stuff along with it. Planescape is a setting, the great wheel is different. With that said, I think if you are going to say a specific plane that demons/vrocks come from then it had better be the abyss - unless you are describing a specific creature like the kender which only belong to one setting - they come from a specific place. Even in 4e they come from the abyss, where the abyss is has moved but they still come from there - and so if you are going to say their plane of origin it should be the abyss.</p><p></p><p>Second, I think that if you give variants it is going to roughly double the room it takes. That is if you give any real kind of description. The poorly explained variants in the 3e MM book for elves, gnomes, dwarves, and so on, just gave a physical description without giving us anything else to denote who or what the variants were - and that extra material basically doubled the entry in the MM. I think that given this is true that space is a concern. So, give a default monster. If you want to elude to others I think you should do so in its own book (preferably a setting book if they're trying to push the IP angle) and not in the first monster manual. For those 8 year olds you need something they can use, not to bog them down in 3 (wasn't it 3?) variants of demons from different settings they have never heard of. 8 year olds can use any version they see and don't have to go looking.</p><p></p><p>Third, I didn't mention this last time, but what you described originally was templates to modify the base creature. I think this is often unsatisfying and takes extra effort. Even quick conversion rules are just extra calculations I would rather never have to do. If I want to make something new from scratch then they are useful, but to have to remember to apply the elemental template every time is a hassle.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you here. Everyone's table is going to be different. I just disagree with how you do it. As you have been repeatedly told it is impossible to try and incorporate everybody's version into the game. So you need to have the game open enough that people can use whatever they want and ignore what they don't want. The monster manual by design already works like this. And again, WotC IS going to have a default setting, are you advocating they do not - and if so what does this look like beyond presenting literally every bit of information right at the get go?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which by itself is a big downside of later monster manuals. I have more than enough fiends, undead and abberations in the first book and a half, do I need another three to tell me MORE of those creatures? Now, if you give me something different then that is another horse entirely. I'm a big fan of themed books - running a low magic then buy book A, high-epic book B, this setting book C, that setting book D, and so on. That is the way that paizo has managed to get me interested in (though my finances preclude me from) buying the later Bestiaries - different themes on creatures. They could even open it up to new types. And WotC has actual different <em>settings</em> they can emulate the books on. So instead of having the base MM, then the forgotten realms books which repeats half the creatures - do a base book (maybe one for beginners/newbies?), then a forgotten realms one which adds in forgotten realms ONLY type creatures. I don't know, its an idea at least.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay. If you want to introduce JUST Thor then I can get on-board. I suspect it would confuse people more than help but my objection about space is gone.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is great if you are 8 and playing with Lego - and able to use your imagination to put pieces from all sets together - with samurai fighting in the wild west with emergency vehicles driving past. The problem is that I am not 8, and the vast majority of the people who play ANY version of DnD are not 8. And even the people who ARE 8 will not be 8 forever. So, you might have to give tools (as opposed to building blocks) that allow us to actually MAKE what we want, instead of having an imitation. My point is that samurai in the wild west is fun, but yo aren't going to be able to tell the same kinds of stories as in game of thrones or even lord of the rings. Some genre-bending is fine, but it is not the same as purposeful mixing of tones. The game should probably try to cater at least in part to an older demographic.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Go back and look at my posts for where I said there should be one only true official minted specific way. I didn't. I said I think there should be a default and there will be a default. And WotC seems to agree. Beyond that, I think you should leave cosmology out of the core books (I'm thinking core as in basic, intro, 3 main) as much as possible. Don't specify feywild, arborea, great wheel or any of it. Try to use language that avoids such absolutes. BUT if you have to give specification then use the one that applies most broadly. If a creature makes most sense as a feywild inhabitant then label it as such. I don't even mind if they have elemental-archons, as long as they are labeled as such. That way if people are playing a world-axis game they can pick those creatures and if they hate the world-axis they can avoid them. The problem seems obvious to me in that you get into problems when you take something or radically alter it for one setting - then apply that change universally. So, label elemental archons as such in a world axis supplement. But have celestial-archons in others - as the celestial version is most broadly applied.</p><p></p><p>There doesn't have to be one true way to do it, but there does have to be a default and that default should be as widely appealing as possible. And I don't see what your solution is beyond the WotC way being bad and adding in much more content (pages) than seems realistically possible (base demons, alternates and/or templates, for every other creature - because 4e decided it liked to be unique and mess with things).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't entirely follow what you are saying here.</p><p></p><p>The cosmology establishes that there a world axis. That axis is reflected in:</p><p>A. The gods that exist, their roles and relations to one another.</p><p>B. The alignment system that exists, its relation to mortals.</p><p>C. The 'outsiders' (you'd call them immortals?) definitions, their homes and you guessed it their relations to one another.</p><p>C i. No more blood war is one thing, no more traipsing between hell and the abyss is another (but also fine), but how they did things made no sense form a long standing history of relations between the two 'races'. No continuity to follow, entirely bizarre from what was given to use even a year prior.</p><p>C ii. Eladrin are now no longer celestials or 'outsiders'. This definition was always kind of hazy as to how they could be celestial AND fey so the change to pure fey wasn't too hard. But eladrin lost even that and became grey elves - what?</p><p>C iii. Archons.. what happened now?</p><p>D. For all the claims that 3e changed things from 2e at least there was an attempt at backward compatibility as far as the fluff went. I mean our players never knew why it was called <strong>Melf</strong>'s acid arrow, but it was still called that.</p><p>E. As I already said, the races themselves. Gnomes are now monsters, dragonborn are now everywhere (as opposed to special) and no longer resemble what came before, tieflings are now everywhere and no longer came from where they did before. The reasons for this was to be tied to cosmology - gnomes are now fey from the feywild, tieflings now related to the god asmodeus (again, fuzzy on this because I have long since stopped following or caring about the alterations and am going purely from memory).</p><p>F. All of these, now mixed with settings that are not the world axis. Why are there so many tieflings and dragonborn in faerun all of a sudden? Why is Dark Sun using the elemental chaos?</p><p></p><p>Now, you say the layout of the planes doesn't matter. To an extent this is true. But it is VERY tricky to untie cosmology from all of what I just said. Trust me I've done it in my own setting a half dozen times in a half dozen ways. One change begets another and then another and keeps going seemingly without end, often in the most surprising ways. I can't say if the cosmology layout came first or last but it IS linked to the changes that were made and does matter. If there is no feywild then there is no reason gnomes and eladrin would be from there, for example.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6248713, member: 95493"] It says more about me that I don't need many many demons in the book? Sure. While it may seem plain to say that if I don't use elves in my games that I don't need 8 varieties of them in the book. This might seem obvious to an extent. But it is not what I'm actually saying. I'm saying I rarely use elves (or demons as I actually said) but think that for space concerns I think they should pick a single type to start and allow others to be labeled as different types in other materials (preferably later MMs or setting books). I'm saying I understand the need for a default, even recognizing the default effect and that people won't necessarily go looking for further products. That is the price you pay, you also seem to understand this. WotC certainly does too. Given that they have said they are using a great wheel setup it seems as though they have their default. Even the default in 4e would have been fine, as long as it didn't eliminate too many things from other systems. People are smart enough to realize that kender, while taking the place of halflings in a setting, are not halflings, and so if you provide (in the MM/PHB/wherever) a source for [i]halflings[/i] then there is no problem if they don't resemble kender. The problem is when you try to give kender AS the default halfling, using the kender description in place of the halfling one. Please note that I don't think you are advocating for this. I think that WotC did this to an extent in 4e, to its detriment. First, I think it is important to note, for the actual 5e MM, that you don't have to say [b]blood war[/b] anywhere in the book. Doesn't have to be raised in any extent. Having the great wheel basis does NOT mean you have to have a blood war or any planescape stuff along with it. Planescape is a setting, the great wheel is different. With that said, I think if you are going to say a specific plane that demons/vrocks come from then it had better be the abyss - unless you are describing a specific creature like the kender which only belong to one setting - they come from a specific place. Even in 4e they come from the abyss, where the abyss is has moved but they still come from there - and so if you are going to say their plane of origin it should be the abyss. Second, I think that if you give variants it is going to roughly double the room it takes. That is if you give any real kind of description. The poorly explained variants in the 3e MM book for elves, gnomes, dwarves, and so on, just gave a physical description without giving us anything else to denote who or what the variants were - and that extra material basically doubled the entry in the MM. I think that given this is true that space is a concern. So, give a default monster. If you want to elude to others I think you should do so in its own book (preferably a setting book if they're trying to push the IP angle) and not in the first monster manual. For those 8 year olds you need something they can use, not to bog them down in 3 (wasn't it 3?) variants of demons from different settings they have never heard of. 8 year olds can use any version they see and don't have to go looking. Third, I didn't mention this last time, but what you described originally was templates to modify the base creature. I think this is often unsatisfying and takes extra effort. Even quick conversion rules are just extra calculations I would rather never have to do. If I want to make something new from scratch then they are useful, but to have to remember to apply the elemental template every time is a hassle. I agree with you here. Everyone's table is going to be different. I just disagree with how you do it. As you have been repeatedly told it is impossible to try and incorporate everybody's version into the game. So you need to have the game open enough that people can use whatever they want and ignore what they don't want. The monster manual by design already works like this. And again, WotC IS going to have a default setting, are you advocating they do not - and if so what does this look like beyond presenting literally every bit of information right at the get go? Which by itself is a big downside of later monster manuals. I have more than enough fiends, undead and abberations in the first book and a half, do I need another three to tell me MORE of those creatures? Now, if you give me something different then that is another horse entirely. I'm a big fan of themed books - running a low magic then buy book A, high-epic book B, this setting book C, that setting book D, and so on. That is the way that paizo has managed to get me interested in (though my finances preclude me from) buying the later Bestiaries - different themes on creatures. They could even open it up to new types. And WotC has actual different [i]settings[/i] they can emulate the books on. So instead of having the base MM, then the forgotten realms books which repeats half the creatures - do a base book (maybe one for beginners/newbies?), then a forgotten realms one which adds in forgotten realms ONLY type creatures. I don't know, its an idea at least. Okay. If you want to introduce JUST Thor then I can get on-board. I suspect it would confuse people more than help but my objection about space is gone. Which is great if you are 8 and playing with Lego - and able to use your imagination to put pieces from all sets together - with samurai fighting in the wild west with emergency vehicles driving past. The problem is that I am not 8, and the vast majority of the people who play ANY version of DnD are not 8. And even the people who ARE 8 will not be 8 forever. So, you might have to give tools (as opposed to building blocks) that allow us to actually MAKE what we want, instead of having an imitation. My point is that samurai in the wild west is fun, but yo aren't going to be able to tell the same kinds of stories as in game of thrones or even lord of the rings. Some genre-bending is fine, but it is not the same as purposeful mixing of tones. The game should probably try to cater at least in part to an older demographic. Go back and look at my posts for where I said there should be one only true official minted specific way. I didn't. I said I think there should be a default and there will be a default. And WotC seems to agree. Beyond that, I think you should leave cosmology out of the core books (I'm thinking core as in basic, intro, 3 main) as much as possible. Don't specify feywild, arborea, great wheel or any of it. Try to use language that avoids such absolutes. BUT if you have to give specification then use the one that applies most broadly. If a creature makes most sense as a feywild inhabitant then label it as such. I don't even mind if they have elemental-archons, as long as they are labeled as such. That way if people are playing a world-axis game they can pick those creatures and if they hate the world-axis they can avoid them. The problem seems obvious to me in that you get into problems when you take something or radically alter it for one setting - then apply that change universally. So, label elemental archons as such in a world axis supplement. But have celestial-archons in others - as the celestial version is most broadly applied. There doesn't have to be one true way to do it, but there does have to be a default and that default should be as widely appealing as possible. And I don't see what your solution is beyond the WotC way being bad and adding in much more content (pages) than seems realistically possible (base demons, alternates and/or templates, for every other creature - because 4e decided it liked to be unique and mess with things). I don't entirely follow what you are saying here. The cosmology establishes that there a world axis. That axis is reflected in: A. The gods that exist, their roles and relations to one another. B. The alignment system that exists, its relation to mortals. C. The 'outsiders' (you'd call them immortals?) definitions, their homes and you guessed it their relations to one another. C i. No more blood war is one thing, no more traipsing between hell and the abyss is another (but also fine), but how they did things made no sense form a long standing history of relations between the two 'races'. No continuity to follow, entirely bizarre from what was given to use even a year prior. C ii. Eladrin are now no longer celestials or 'outsiders'. This definition was always kind of hazy as to how they could be celestial AND fey so the change to pure fey wasn't too hard. But eladrin lost even that and became grey elves - what? C iii. Archons.. what happened now? D. For all the claims that 3e changed things from 2e at least there was an attempt at backward compatibility as far as the fluff went. I mean our players never knew why it was called [b]Melf[/b]'s acid arrow, but it was still called that. E. As I already said, the races themselves. Gnomes are now monsters, dragonborn are now everywhere (as opposed to special) and no longer resemble what came before, tieflings are now everywhere and no longer came from where they did before. The reasons for this was to be tied to cosmology - gnomes are now fey from the feywild, tieflings now related to the god asmodeus (again, fuzzy on this because I have long since stopped following or caring about the alterations and am going purely from memory). F. All of these, now mixed with settings that are not the world axis. Why are there so many tieflings and dragonborn in faerun all of a sudden? Why is Dark Sun using the elemental chaos? Now, you say the layout of the planes doesn't matter. To an extent this is true. But it is VERY tricky to untie cosmology from all of what I just said. Trust me I've done it in my own setting a half dozen times in a half dozen ways. One change begets another and then another and keeps going seemingly without end, often in the most surprising ways. I can't say if the cosmology layout came first or last but it IS linked to the changes that were made and does matter. If there is no feywild then there is no reason gnomes and eladrin would be from there, for example. [/QUOTE]
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