Wandering Monsters: Goblins, Bugbears and Hobgoblins!

To follow up on this article we now have a sketch of what the goblin will look like here.

I think it needs an evil grin - a grinning monster always says tricksy, and potentially ready to run away, to me.

Not loving the drawing that they were presenting. Looks more orc-like than goblin-like to me. Too muscular, too simian, too threatening. It looks like a dwarf orc rather than a goblin, though without anything else for reference it is hard to get a sense of scale.

I will say that I like the decision not to make goblins exclusively comic relief. Pathfinder goblins have gone a little too far in that sort of 'evil but cutesy' direction for my taste. I don't want goblins to be a society of malicious toddlers.

Of the illustrations they provided, the one on the bottom left is closest to being on the right track, but frankly I have a whole folder full of images that I think work better than that.
 

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There was no adequate poll option for this, but I prefer goblinoids to live separately from each other but fight together when there is a large battle (i.e. when hobgoblins have decided to march and conquer somewhere, and collect goblins and bugbears to boost their ranks).

I like the take on hobgoblins as a militaristic but still quite savage race.

I also quite like the goblins of the article, including the comic relief, in fact I would even like to see some emphasis on them as mischievous pranksters, causing harm and damage in ingenious ways motivated by fun more than by gain.

Bugbears... never been a huge fan of them. They always felt a bit redundant to me, just stupid and brute. But I wouldn't add much to this, there's already quite a lot of "evil ugly humanoid" races in the MM that at least I wouldn't want another whole society of them to deploy in the setting.
 

Not loving the drawing that they were presenting. Looks more orc-like than goblin-like to me. Too muscular, too simian, too threatening. It looks like a dwarf orc rather than a goblin, though without anything else for reference it is hard to get a sense of scale.

I will say that I like the decision not to make goblins exclusively comic relief. Pathfinder goblins have gone a little too far in that sort of 'evil but cutesy' direction for my taste. I don't want goblins to be a society of malicious toddlers.

Of the illustrations they provided, the one on the bottom left is closest to being on the right track, but frankly I have a whole folder full of images that I think work better than that.

Took the words right out from under my fingers. Almost exactly what I was going to say...but I'mma gonna sy s'more anyhow. :D

The top images look a bit too much like the Orcs we saw earlier. Now, while I do consider orcs to be "goblinoids" I don't really consider them to be of the "direct" goblin line, if you get my meaning. IOW, orcs are not genetically related to gobs, hobs or bugbears...they are their own creature/species, but are just lumped in with "dangerous raiding monstrous humanoids, a.k.a. one of the goblin races/goblinoids."

I guess that sort of distinction goes to the "in world view" that was discussed. Are orcs and goblins, in the fantasy world animal kingdom, the same branch of evolution? Or are they just collected together in the "civilized/goodly" races mind as both being a goblinoid? Is that something that the game should be stipulating or leaving from table-to-table, setting-to-setting to decide? I don't know that there's a "right" answer for that.

The proportions are good (the long arms, shorter legs, kinda constantly hunched, etc...). I just don't know...something about it is too..."neat", if that makes sense.

I also concur that the bottom left corner and the third on the bottom (with the flail) is a bit more "goblinesque" to me. The third one for the more floppy/stuck out ears (but maybe that's getting a bit too close to Pathfinder-ish, and I get that)...the first on the bottom because it does look more "weak" physically, without being comical.

The top ones do not look physically weak at all! The one on the bottom right corner I was assuming was supposed to be an actual orc for comparison, guess the battle axe was throwing me off...but apparently that is supposed to be another goblin concept.

Definitely too similar to the orcs...for my taste/imagination/preconceived concepts and preferences of "goblin"...I might give them more of a "nose" as opposed to lil' holes in the middle of their face. If not, then give the orcs their piggish snouts back, maybe? Everything evil doesn't need to be some pug-ish ape-like flat face.

Just my 2 coppers. As always, great thought-provoking article, though.
--SD
 

Not sure if I've already said this.

I went for Giant Class (the 1st Ed ranger has a certain panache) or Goblinoid.

I really dug bugbears and hobgoblins, but goblins fell a bit short (no pun intended) for me, I like them to be a bit more organised, they made them seem a bit too much like flailing kobolds for my taste; I also want the fighting agains orcs and Gruumsh in the name of Maglubiyet action, and the hatred of dwarves.
 

I'm going to disagree again when it comes to the illustrated goblins.

I like the overall shape of the top left goblin, but the body is too stocky. I like the longer arms but I'm not a fan if they get longer still. Overall the body-shape of 1 is my fav. The face more or less works for me too. I'd rather the ears look like the second from the right on the bottom row but that could be a perspective thing. I just like them with slightly floppy ears, not big floppy ones that I see in a lot of media.

I'd like to see this same guy take a crack at the non-dwarf version of this creature and see if we think that looks like an orc or hobgoblin.

My objection with the bottom left goblin is that it looks too cartoony. His head is way too big for his body and his body looks too skinny to be an effective enemy.

Sidenote: I like that bottom right goblin but I'd like him as a bugbear or maybe an orc - I'd have to see a bigger, better, cleaner version either way to be sure.

Oh, and the "too neat" comment - I think its the lack of tears in the clothing - their armor looks custom fit which is odd for a goblin.
 

So far, so good. Like the last article, I think this one hit most of the high notes. Personally, I don't see these creatures as exactly working together very often -- only when the hobgoblins come out and marshal them together. I also see a little more variation in alignment than WotC does (though like most alignment debates, it's certainly a little subjective), and give the creatures a higher Charisma (because in my mind, they are fundamentally creatures of fear).

My own take...
[sblock=Goblins]
Goblins
Goblins are the Things That Go Bump In The Night. Sneaky, stealthy, always at the edge of your vision, they lurk just out of sight, waiting to pounce on you from behind. They are that creeping sensation you get when you're alone in your house at night. They are that thing that hides under your bed or in your closet. They are the eyes you feel on the back of your head when you turn away from your window for a moment...

See, in the Real World, these things are tricks of your imagination -- your own fears playing tricks on you. But in D&D, tricks of your imagination tend to be real about half the time: people have lost children to goblins hiding under the bed or in the closet or in the basement. People alone at night have been found the next morning, half-eaten, with flesh carved off with rusted, serrated blades.

It's this that gives them a closeness with wolves and worgs. They both hunt in darkness and twilight, preying on the weakness of others in order to kill and maim. Wolves generally hunt for food, but under the influence of goblins, they learn how fun it is to hunt for the fun of the chase, for the glee that their snarling pursuit inspires. Goblins work with them since wolves are faster: those who flee into open terrain can be taken down by the wolves, and those who are backed into a corner become victims of the goblins.

Goblins may also associate with bats and spiders and other creatures that lurk in hidden places, ready to jump out when disturbed. They aren't quite as famous for these associations as they are for wolves, but it certainly happens (albeit a little less fetishistically than with vampires and drow, for example -- goblins are part of the creepy crawlies, not devotees of them).

The goblins are close to the fey world in the same way that elves are: near it, but not of it. They are close to the shadows of they fey world as elves are close to the sun. Certain goblins are clever enough to learn some remedial magic of darkness and fear, manipulating their environment subtly to make their victory more assured. These "shamans" generally resemble witches and warlocks more than holy people.

IMO, Goblins have decent Charisma, due to their terror-inspiring skills. A goblin learns how to intimidate and threaten their prey, to back them into a corner...or perhaps into the waiting jaws of a pack of wolves. They're not leaders, but they ARE masters of giving people that screaming terror that comes on just before they go to sleep, as they are drifting off and blinking their eyes, and something moves in the corner of the room.

An encounter with goblins should have the PC's saying "What was that?!," jumping at shadows, and being afraid to turn their back. Unseen and malicious, the goblin will wait for your guard to drop, and then attack ruthlessly. Mechanics that help in hiding or invisibility, abilities like Sneak Attack, and magical effects of fear might dwell within goblin encounters.
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[sblock=Bugbears]
Bugbears
Bugbears are the nervousness, fear, and uneasiness of goblins blown into full-on terror and desperation. With goblins, the question is: fight or flight? Can I face my fear, or does it overcome me? With bugbears, the answer is obvious: run. As fast and as far as you can, run. Because the creature lurking just out of sight absolutely wants to devour you, and you have little hope of stopping it.

Bugbears are the brutal inevitability of death, the shadow that comes for all life. They stalk and they wait, and they are also much stronger and more durable than your average person. Savage and keen-eyed, the bugbear tracks and kills its prey with methodical determination and a perverse glee at the creature's fear and desperation. Goblins thrive on surprise and shock, but bugbears are at home with wailing panic and desperate pleading. Goblins want to jump out and surprise you. Bugbears want to chase you, making you run ahead of them, never sure of where they are, until they finally face you, overpower you, and kill you, as you gasp, exhausted from your terrified flight.

Bugbears are loners, as befits their role as predators of the civilized folk, working alone to maximize their effect before they are discovered, to gain the greatest mobility and stealth. Self-interested, wild, and ravenous, the bugbear takes great joy in isolating its prey as well, cutting it off from people that might help them.

An encounter with a bugbear should have the PC's saying "Oh no! Oh no no no no! Please, no!" The characters should be scared, yes, but also positive that their fear is real and manifest and about to leap out of the shadows and kill them and eat them. Mechanics that help this might include fear-based abilities that move people around, scaring them into running or avoiding certain areas. Sneak attacks and the like ring true to the bugbear's purpose as well, but so do things that build over time: a bugbear should wear their enemies down without ever having to give themselves away. Let fear do the work of one thousand swords.
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[sblock=Hobgoblins]
Hobgoblins
Hobgoblins are the creatures that crush your kingdom, enslave your people, and become lords of what you once knew as yours. If the goblinoids are all joined together by the theme of fear, then hobgoblins are the fear of your life being shattered and upended by an outside force. Whereas standard goblins leap out of the darkness to surprise, and bugbears stalk and intimidate and pursue, hobgoblins emerge out of the haze in the distance, just beyond that hill, and proceed to take everything from you.

Hobgoblins are the fear of the powerful conqueror made real. While goblins and bugbears are familiar threats near at hand (though often just out of sight), hobgoblins come on the march from an unseen place, tramping upon all else. They don't come to destroy (like an orc hoard), however, but to conquer. Hobgoblins see the value in slavery, and extol the virtues of forced labor. Leisure is something that hobgoblin commanders reserve for themselves, but always pursue -- thus, the importance of cultivating willing slaves and sycophantic allies. Hobgoblins break the will with hard labor, demeaning deeds, and crushing control. Rebellion isn't unthinkable, it's just impossible: the hobgoblins have no respect for the lives of those they conquer, and they use them up, using fear of torture and torment to motivate the slaves to work, and being all too happy to reward the loyal with the release of death. The hobgoblins are an engine of hobgoblin-centric power generation, and whatever power structure that exists in the first place, they will overthrow and replace with their own, with themselves at the top.

Those who fight the hobgoblins will find them disciplined, organized, and effective. They favor ambushes and surprise tactics, luring their enemy's force out and decimating them in small numbers until they can lay waste to the main force. They are well-planned, with battle formations and contingency plans and an impressive amount of combat intelligence (often gathered from goblin or bugbear spies). Surrender or be taken by force, the hobgoblins will dominate, consolidate, and eradicate, making you and your childrens' children (bred, of course, under the auspices of hobgoblin breeding programs) see yourselves as nothing more than cogs in the machinery of the great Hobgoblin Army.

For hobgoblins, you can take the worst elements of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and apply them right to your idyllic pseudo-medieval village, via the hobbos. Hobgoblins treat people like property, like livestock, using them to power their own material success and luxury. In addition to their distant trade empires, the fear is always that they will come marching over the hill to conquer YOU.

Hobgoblins associate with the other goblinoids largely because the other goblinoids make functional slaves and overseers. Bugbears and goblins are dull enough and cruel enough that they can be trusted, to a degree, and thus given a measure of authority (think of how the trans-Atlantic slave trade used poor European immigrants, especially in America). Their disorganized rebellions hold little real threat for the hobgoblin supremacy, as their self-interest largely dictates that any attempt to escape will be a unique, personal event, rather than a large-scale uprising.

An encounter with hobgoblins should have the players going "Don't take me!" The fear isn't so much death (though there is always that) as enslavement. Hobgoblins might use charms and domination as well as fear, and might use whips and nets and other non-lethal equipment in order to take prizes. They also will make use of others that have been enslaved: a force of hobgoblins might be obvious, but what won't be obvious is the hundreds of goblins and dozens of bugbears lurking all around the corners of that camp, ready and willing to take out any who threaten the hides of their commanders.
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I also think that the goblin concept at in the D-E-V article is pretty solid (assuming the image on the left is the "finalized" one). I can see "cowardly" in that. I'd like to see a little more sneakiness and stealth, but that might come from the environment (what the goblin is DOING in the art that is depicting them).
 
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Not loving the drawing that they were presenting. Looks more orc-like than goblin-like to me. Too muscular, too simian, too threatening. It looks like a dwarf orc rather than a goblin, though without anything else for reference it is hard to get a sense of scale.

I will say that I like the decision not to make goblins exclusively comic relief. Pathfinder goblins have gone a little too far in that sort of 'evil but cutesy' direction for my taste. I don't want goblins to be a society of malicious toddlers.

Of the illustrations they provided, the one on the bottom left is closest to being on the right track, but frankly I have a whole folder full of images that I think work better than that.

Yeah, not how I want a goblin too look; its almost as if they based orcs on gorillas and goblins on chimps (I hope that wouldn't mean bugbears would be based on orangatauns).

The lower left picture I think is a 2E Lazz goblin from the MC. I think of all of the, I agee with Steel that the flail-wielder looks closest to my impression of a gobbo.
 


I have to say that all of the illustrations of goblins look like Orcs to me.

I don't really like the fact that there are so many low level humanoids that look and act exactly the same. Orcs should be strong and brutal, goblins should be tricky, quick and fey. Otherwise, what do I care about whether orcs and hobgoblins have two entries in the monster manual? Or goblins for that matter, since I can always reduce by 1 HD orc to 1/2 HD.

There was always a long standing grudge amongst Dragonlance fans whenever a novel author screwed up and mentioned Orcs, because Orcs were not supposed to be in Dragonlance (with Draconians being the setting's "orcs". But since they included goblins in that setting, it never bothered me. Why not assume that Orcs are just the Krynnish word for chaotic and savage hobgoblins? It's all the same.

So no matter what the monster manual does, my goblins will be twisted remnants of gnomes and hobgoblins elves that were tortured by the Formian Giants. Bugbears will be Boogeymen, who stalk human prey and drag it off into the woods.

Otherwise you might as well do what Tolkien did, and just have goblin be another name for orc, or perhaps a small and subterranean species of the genus orc.
 

I thought their take on Goblins was very recognizable. That's a good thing as it can be customized per campaign for those who don't want the more default D&D monsters. They are sneaky pests who come in the night to steal your cattle, shred your grain sacks, and kidnap your children. They are the not the best, but the iconic ambushers and part of the reason night time travel is simply more dangerous.

Hobgoblins are 1/2 goblins 1/2 human and the write up does a good job demonstrating both sides of the coin. They are highly organized, can run countries, amass armies, attack well as groups, husband creatures, train for specialties for hero warriors and among the best humanoid magic-users / witchdoctors. Their culture however is cruel, mean, and violent. They may not have all the natural abilities of a goblin, but they are bigger and smarter and their organizing of goblins can make their smaller cousins more of a threat. It is not uncommon to find a hobgoblin leading a band of particularly successful goblins.

For Bugbears I didn't agree with a lot of the points described.

I see them as hobgoblins bred with giantkin or perhaps orcs which have some giant blood in them too. They are big brutes, but as intelligent as a human and sneaky as a goblin. They are quite simply the green berets of the humanoid armies. They are like the Uruk-Hai. They stand at the top of the humanoid Hit Die totals of the AD&D monster ladder just before it goes seriously non-humanoid. They are not Large-size, but are the biggest and tallest in the medium-size span putting even gnolls to shame.

They are more organized than any other standard humanoid, work in packs, know more about tactics like tripping, attacking magic items directly, encircling, and much, much more. Bugbears are amongst the best ambushers in the game and could even lead thieves guilds or a branch of the assassin's guild. They are trained in poison use and assassination attacks. They can use any weapon or armor. They can see the PCs use a novel tactic once, remember it, and in short time be prepared to use it for their own. They can track and hunt the PCs for as long as supplies and the environment will support them, even months to years if ordered to do so. They are very capable at hiding and have sneaked bands even into large cities in order to attack behind enemy lines destroying high value targets and enemies.

They are a separate goblinoid tribe created specially for their size, ferocity, sneakiness, and intelligence. They may not win you over as conversationalists, but while terse they are no fools. They have great patience and will watch and listen for information which they know can be as dear as any treasure they can hold. Culturally they do not breed, but are bred from other stock. There are no bugbear young and male and female are largely indistinguishable in behavior. Bugbear culture promotes violence and inflicting pain. They are very popular as torturers and headsmen.

Bugbears are often one of the gems of a Chaos Army (no matter who put it together, bugbear breeders or not) and they know their pay value too, which is high. They are unwilling to lead other groups believing they are naturally superior to all others and seek to only work alongside other bugbears. They will use others to their advantage however, but have no misgivings of using their goblinoid cousins as shock troops, wasting lives so they can gain tactical advantage, probably from hiding.

If one of their bugbear allies or even themselves fall in combat, there is no expectation of being saved. They will be left behind for being unfit and will even take suicidal measures against enemies in such cases. However, fellow bugbears are still judged highly valuable as combatants whether they have been harmed or not. They are naturally the closest ally to other bugbears, so out of combat wounds are treated as by any highly trained warrior. Nor are they so dumb as to fight to the death over nothing. They have very high morale scores, but, like any goblin, will retreat as frequently as desired if environmental or other tactical advantages are lost. They realize combat may require several battles. They will not split their group even if half have fallen to injury unless their quarry is at risk of permanently escaping. Instead they will seek to heal to regain power becoming a full strength band before attacking again.
 
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