Warden Build Suggestions

[Xipe_Totec]

Hey guys, first time poster and I'm REALLY hoping some of you will be willing to help me out. First, I'd like to give you a little background about me and my party members. We've been trying to get into D&D for some time. We started a couple years back with several 3.5 campaigns, but seems we never made it very far before the campaign fizzled out for some reason or another. Seems we gave up for awhile, then about 6 months ago, we decided to try 4e. We had a great campaign going with an interesting story, however we lost 2 members and it just kind've fell apart. Well, we're at it again, shrinking our party to core members and hoping to get a good thing going.

I think the biggest problem we've had in the past is a lack of RP. It's difficult for most of us to really get in the character and instead seem to treat it more like a board game, so we're making a new rule this time around that once we sit down at the table to play, we're in character and have to act accordingly. All that to explain that we're going to try and make this a more RP heavy session so the DM will give us a little slack on build perfection and is willing to help us out a bit. However, I still want to make the strongest build I can while still keeping it easy to RP. In any case, I'm hoping that maybe I can get some suggestions and help on my build on maybe some things to look at, and more importantly, why I should. I don't want to take a power/feat just because someone says it's good, but I want to know why. If I don't know how to use it correctly, it might end up being useless. Anyways, moving on....

To help with RP and fix some problems we seemed to find in sticking together as a party in the past, in this campaign, we will already have a history of being a team. We will all be crew members on a "pirate" airship and have been working together for some time. Even though we are more "anti-hero's", it will grow into a typical "save the world" kind of thing. My party members are a Barbarian, Rogue, and Cleric. Needing to fill the defender role, I decided to play a Warden. I suppose I'm not 100% closeminded to any other classes, but on paper, the Warden interested me the most. On races, it seems the Warforged would be the most powerful race for a Warden, but I just didn't like the flavor of them, so I wanted to go with a Goliath. They seem a pretty close 2nd, and I think I could create a good story with them. I know a Dwarf is strong, but personally, I've just never been fond of dwarves, so that's pretty much out for me.

In any case, we will all start at level 8 (although might push for 9 to get a +2 weapon, lol) and are able to pretty much deck ourselves out with any magic items we want. The DM gave us full reign on that with hopes that we will be a pretty OP group and he wanted to tone down the number of magic items we get as rewards, so several of the ones I choose might have to tide me over for awhile. Here's a sample lvl1 build I put together, and I'll discuss more below...

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Cthulak, level 1
Goliath, Warden
Build: Earth Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Background: Geography - Forest (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 18, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 15 Reflex: 13 Will: 13
HP: 35 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +8, Endurance +6, Perception +8, Athletics +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -2, Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, History, Insight +1, Intimidate -1, Religion, Stealth -2, Streetwise -1, Thievery -2

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer)

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Strength of Stone
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Heavy Shield, Craghammer
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Ok, couple of things; One, before anyone yells at me, I HAVE done as much research as I could on other builds and things. Sudden Roots, I know it's taken to be one of the best feats for a Warden, and I'll probably pick it up, but I'm unsure as to how useful it will be with an all melee group? I view battles to be a big cluster around me anyways, so not sure exactly how useful it will be, especially since the DM typically keeps marked targets attacking the marker (although this could change). I was thinking it would be a feat better spent on Mark of Warding (although I plan to pick this up ASAP either way).

Second, on the weapon. In my head, I view this gigantic guy covered in patches of stone slinging a huge maul over his shoulder. However, I want to optimize, and there are some great feats for hammers (and hammers are cool, too), so I thought it was worth spending a feat on the craghammer (not to mention I like the Brutal 2). If it didn't work out like I envision it, I figure I could always retrain later, but anyone has any better suggestions, I'm certainly open.

Multiclass, I've read where it's very popular to MC Barb or Fighter. I tried looking into both, but maybe I was missing the big secret for them. For Barb, I saw people saying it was getting the ability to rage (still not sure I understand the mechanic). If I'm reading correctly, you rage when you use a barb daily power? If so, doesn't it kind of hurt to give up the Warden daily powers to gain something from a barb? Maybe it's something only for higher levels? As for fighter, I saw some nice abilities in there, but what is it exactly that you're looking for in going Fighter? Or is it just to be able to pick up their powers as well? Also, I swear I thought I saw someone post that MC fighter got an additional use of Second Wind? If that's the case, that seems like it would be HUGE for a Warden, but I couldn't find how that happens? Any advice here is VERY welcome!

Powers, I chose Roots of Stone over the seemingly more popular Thunder Ram Assault since a knockback seems to be the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish (although when you need a break from damage, I can see the power of slowing and knocking back to buy you some time). Roots of Stone seemed to be a better choice to me to make sure at early levels, if enemies try to ignore my mark and attack an ally, they can't shift away from me to attack and instead have to pay the price (and pay dearly they shall!). If anyone has any better suggestions or anything, I'm wide open.

Magic items, I'm currently trying to sift through all the books to put together a good list of items I feel would be good on my Warden (for now and in the future). If anyone has any suggestions, PLEASE let me know and let me know what book it's in.

RP suggestions; as I stated earlier, we are all new to RP, so if any of you have had this problem in the past or know of any good ideas that might help the group RP a little more, PLEASE let me know!

Sorry, I was hoping to have time to go ahead and spec out what I envision my Warden looking like at level 8 (so maybe I could get some suggestions for that) but I ran out of time for the night. I'll definitely put something together tomorrow and post one up and see what you guys think. In the meantime, any critique or suggestions are VERY welcome! Thank you in advance for ANY help you can give a newbie!

 

[Aulirophile]

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At Epic Martial Classes have a feat that allows them another use of Second Wind. You have to MC to get and have Con 19 (which you will, no big). Dwarves are, far and away, the strongest Warden race because they can Second Wind as a Minor, something you will seriously consider doing every encounter as a Warden. Goliaths and Warforged are probably tied for second. If you do MC Fighter wait till level 11 and take Battle Awareness as your MC Feat (you'll qualify when all your stats go up by 1 at 11th).

MCing Fighter is just ridiculous. They have the best Defender feats of any Defender, and the PPs available to them are just better then the Warden ones (though the Warden has a couple good ones they don't really compare).

If you want to avoid the Shift+Charge issue you can take Stoneblessed as your PP, Goliath racial PP. It will permanently increase your Reach by 1 at level 11. It would also work well with wielding a 2-hander.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Goliath, Warden, Stoneblessed
Build: Earth Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 21, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 26 Fort: 25 Reflex: 21 Will: 22
HP: 108 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +13, Perception +11, Endurance +15, Athletics +17, Heal +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, History +5, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6

FEATS
Level 1: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 4: Improved Defenses
Level 6: Sudden Roots
Level 8: Guard of Stone
Level 10: Improved Initiative (retrained to Armor Specialization (Hide) at Level 11)
Level 11: Battle Awareness

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Thorn Strike
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Warden encounter 3: Earthgrasp Strike
Warden daily 5: Form of Mountain's Thunder
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Guardian's Pounce
Warden daily 9: Form of the Oak Sentinel
Warden utility 10: Reactive Surge

ITEMS
Maw of the Guardian Maul +2, Battle Harness Hide Armor +2, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2, Boots of Quickness (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Something like that. Retrain Thorn Strike to Tempest Assault at level 12.

There is another strong option which is MCing Warlord. Gives you access to the Martial feats, and there is an amazing PP called Earthfast Brigadier... but ideally you want to be a Dwarf, since it doesn't stack up as well without SW as a Minor.

 

[SparqMan]

If the primary issue you identified is a lack RP, perhaps you should start first with a character concept, rather than optimizing a build.

You said you're drawn to the Warden and have a picture of the PC in your mind. What's his story? In the campaign world, do Goliaths live in the mountains as they do in PoL? How did he come to work on a pirate airship? What is his role in the crew? How did he get all those magical items? Are they significant or just equipment? What are some of his great stories from the previous adventures that would have happened leading up to him being an 8th level hero?

 

[I'm A Banana]

First, to help with RP, ask yourself these questions:

1. What does my character want? How will my character find that?
2. What does my character fear? How will my character confront that?
3. Outside of combat, what is your character particularly known to be good at?
4. Outside of combat, what is your character particularly known to be bad at?
5. What is your character's recent history? How did they come to join the party? What drove them to the dangerous adventuring lifestyle?

It might help everyone in the group to do it. If you get a clear picture of your character's motives, you can use them to drive the action. You might also want to consider having some sort of relationship with at least one other member of the party. You were childhood friends, or you guys were always rivals, or you have a grudge against their chosen deity, or something that you can bring up in group interaction. Nothing that's going to make your character quit the team, but something to say "Hey, we are more than five weird critters who met in a tavern."

Secondly, as for build stuff...check the CharOp boards. They're good at gearhead +1 maximizing over there, and the less you think about it, the more attention you'll be focusing onto your character and the reason for what they do, which helps bring in that RP you're looking for.

 

[666Sinner666]

I'm not gona touch on the RP aspect as that is something other have done well enough already and really something for you to figure out anyways. Anywho...

Wardens as defenders do two things really well: 1.) soak damage as they have the highest hit points of any class and can second wind numerous times an encounter; 2.) Mark all enemies around them and slow them so they have few choices.

The first is the main reason Dwarves rank as the number one warden because they have feats that increase the number of times they can second wind, can second wind as a minor, and have feats to increase their surge value. The other reason Dwarves are number one is because with one feat you get proficiency with a carghammer, probably the best one hander around, and a damage boost when using it. Saves you a feat slot, which is vital for a Warden as they are feat dependent to shine.

As far as powers go you may want to consider taking Thorn Strike in lieu of Strength of Stone as the melee 2 and pull is a great way to get one more person around you to mark before the end of your turn. All the other power choices are spot on for a Warden.

When it comes to feats Crippling Crush and Vicious Advantage should make your list. Extra damage with a hammer and combat advantage against slowed targets. Sudden Roots can be nice but only if your DM plays intelligent monsters who will ignore marks.

For magic items the only one that is a "must" for a warden is Cloak of the Walking Wounded. Two surges per second wind? Yes please! Otherwise, gear him up as you please.

In the realm of Paragon Paths Stoneblessed is you best option as a Goliath.

Nevermind. Someone already posted the handbook link.

 

[Xipe_Totec]

Hey guys, I just wanted to thank you all SOOOO much for your responses. You all gave me a lot of good info and I've got a much better idea of where I want my character to go. Especially a HUGE thanks for that link. The handbook on there was a HUMONGOUS help. I'm not going to finalize any build until the end of this weekend since we're going to meet Sunday and talk about the campaign and where everyone is on their characters and things to help us all get a better idea of what's going on. So Sunday night, I'll get (hopefully) a lvl 8 build on this thread for all of you to critique.

In any case, thanks again for all your help so far! And if anyone else has anything else to add, please do! I'll keep checking this post regularly.

 

[SparqMan]

So Sunday night, I'll get (hopefully) a lvl 8 build on this thread for all of you to critique.

Include your character story/background info too.

 

[Xipe_Totec]

Include your character story/background info too.

Sure thing!

 

[Xipe_Totec]

Well, we ended up meeting early and kind've got things hammered out last night. Turns out there were quite a few changes people made in their character decisions, lol. The person who was gonna play a barb decided to play a rogue and the rogue decided to play a psion...

So the new party looks like this: Human Rogue, Human Cleric, Shardmind Psion, Goliath Warden. I also have copies of all of their "preliminary" character sheets if anyone has any questions on decisions they've made.

Now, on to my character... I've made a lvl 8 build (although we might end up starting at level 9), and I think I'm starting to get an idea of the character I'm trying to create, so here we go and I'll leave it to all of you experts to critique!

First, for the story, I'm still writing a more detailed background for him, but the idea is that he came from a northern Goliath mountain tribe that worshiped the cold/winter (hince Raven Queen for deity). I haven't decided exactly what happened (suggestions anyone?) but he failed some type of competition and was banned from his tribe as a failure. So he's taken up with a party of airship pirates and is constantly trying to prove himself to be the best. Here's the sheet preview:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Cthuläk Frösthammer, level 8
Goliath, Warden
Build: Earth Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Background: The Frostfell (Eberron Player's Guide) (+2 to Nature)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 20, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 26 Fort: 22 Reflex: 19 Will: 19
HP: 86 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +14, Athletics +13, Endurance +11, Perception +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +3, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +5, Heal +5, History +3, Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Religion +3, Stealth +2, Streetwise +4, Thievery +2

FEATS
Level 1: Crippling Crush
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Craghammer)
Level 4: Mark of Warding
Level 6: Sudden Roots
Level 8: Bludgeon Expertise

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Strength of Stone
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Nature Sense
Warden encounter 3: Rough Strike
Warden daily 5: Boiling Cloud
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Winter's Claws

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit (2), Frost Craghammer +2, Battle Harness Hide Armor +2, Camouflaged Clothing, Crowbar, Hunter's Kit, Travel Papers, Hammer Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Parry Gauntlets (heroic tier), Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier), Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2, Cincture of the Dragon Spirit (heroic tier), Belt of Blood (heroic tier), Frost Gauntlets (heroic tier), Bag of Holding (heroic tier), Battle Standard of Honor (heroic tier), Battle Standard of the Hungry Blade (heroic tier), Ironheart Tattoo (heroic tier), Maw of the Guardian Maul +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Please please give me any advice. I'm pretty excited about the character so far.

 

[Xipe_Totec]

Also, I forgot to ask this earlier, but I was wondering about one thing. On the Warden Powers, they have an immediate interrupt and an immediate reaction (Warden's Fury and Warden's Grasp). What exactly is the difference between these two, and can you use them both (if able) if a marked enemy attacks someone else?

Logic tells me that the interrupt would take place before the attack and the reaction would take place after, but does this have significance? If I hit with the interrupt, does it actually "interrupt" the attack and they can no longer attack my ally or does it just allow me to do a little extra damage?

Thanks again for all the help!