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Warforged Clockwork Soul Sorcerer. Is It fun and iconic?
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<blockquote data-quote="nogray" data-source="post: 8197370" data-attributes="member: 28028"><p>Good objective. Always a good idea to aim towards having fun. With that in mind, I hope you don't mind some (hopefully constructive and/or useful) feedback.</p><p></p><p>I don't have a problem, <em>per se</em>, with Lawful Evil, though I do think a Mechanus-based character would more likely be Lawful Neutral, instead. Of course, a character is not limited to its inspiration. Still, the Lawful Evil makes me think more Devil than Modron/PC Inevitable, more evil lawyer than Judge Dredd.</p><p></p><p>If the character is playing pure Eberron, the name feels off from the normal ones given for Warforged. That's no big deal, of course. Feeding into both of those (Judge Dredd and/or Inevitables as inspirations), the name "Gavel" could be cool.</p><p></p><p>How did the Dex hit 18? Assuming point buy and Tasha's flexible scores, I could only get 17. (But then, I got a 16 Con without putting the Skill Expert attribute point into Con, so maybe that's just a typo? That must be it. The Skill Expert --> Dex fixes it.) With the Dex sorted, wouldn't the AC be 18 (13 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 1 Warforged) while Mage Armor was active? Either way, it certainly is an interesting stat array.</p><p></p><p>To be honest, I am a bit disappointed to see the Stealth bit come back up, but that seems a favorite tactic of yours, and I certainly can't fault you for it, given its potential effectiveness. It's not strongly aligned with the mechanical/Mechanus theme, but it doesn't exactly fight against it. Dropping it could lead to some interesting tweaks, though. Party composition might be a deciding factor, here.</p><p></p><p>At the moment, you don't have Seeking Spell. (Or at least it's not listed.) Even without it, the character is quite a reliable hitter during its Trance (to the point that it should almost never need Seeking Spell). If the Stealth tactic were dropped, the Sorcerer could swap the subtle for seeking (given the SP cost, I'm not sure that's a good swap) or for Empower or Distant (too many fun options for Sorcerer Metamagics), and that could also free up that ASI/Feat for something else and swap out a couple of spells. I don't know for what, precisely; just thinking. </p><p></p><p>Don't know how I feel about the Dispel/Counterspell pair for this particular character. If the Sorcerer guesses incorrectly on the spell level, that Charisma penalty will definitely hurt it here. I'm not sure at the moment what else to choose, but the Sorcerer could still find frustration with that pair of spells combined with a low casting stat.</p><p></p><p>Recheck the build's 4th-level spells. There is only one Clockwork-eligible spell (Polymorph). The others are conjuration, illusion, and evocation and are not on the Clockwork Spells list. That's not a legal set of 4th-level spells, as it currently stands.</p><p></p><p>As one poster ([USER=5948]@humble minion[/USER]) pointed out, the build does have a lot of Concentration-demanding spells and quite a few Reactions, so thinning those might be something to consider. Not needed, but maybe useful.</p><p></p><p>Without healer support, I was never confident in relying on Aid hit points. When it expires, those HP go away, and the Sorcerer could drop from that. It does have a lot of raw in-combat HP, though, as well as other defenses. It's a solid build in that regard. (Though to be fair, it is paying for them in spell slots and whatnot.)</p><p></p><p>I would hesitate to call this character the greatest tank in the game, though. The Sorcerer has a lot of hit points in combat, but the lower hit die for the Sorcerer means that over the course of a long adventuring day, it might have fewer effective hit points than a beefier-hit-die character: a Bear-Barbarian for instance. Also, some of those hit points (Armor of Agathys) come from a 2-hour-duration spell (if extended). That only works well if the characters have a site-based set of encounters. For more overland-style adventuring, it might not be so good. The hit points are also in competition with polymorphing (same spell slots). In fact, two of the Sorcerer's three base level-4 spells are used up in prep, leaving only one for polymorphing (plus its level 5-7 slots, but those are claimed for other uses.</p><p></p><p>Undoubtedly quite superior in that regard.</p><p></p><p>I don't know about "several" times; from above, it looks like the Sorcerer spends a lot of its initial resources in that prep phase. I'd need to see your breakdown on what goes into the setup, especially vs. what sort of encounters you would want to spend some portion or all of this on defeating. That is a lot of resources, by my count, but then again, I could be missing something. It's quite a bit of setup, too, in terms of the action cost to get all that off. The payoff is pretty sweet, though. It'd be a tough nut to crack.</p><p></p><p>Absent Quickening the Blade Ward (very cheap to do, I know), the resistance's action cost is really just taking the Sorcerer out of consideration for the combat. It's also not something the Sorcerer can do in its polymorphed forms, but you knew that already, I'm sure. Fire Shield being a 4th-level spell means that it is competing with that Armor of Agathys and Aid upcasts for slots (or the Polymorph cast).</p><p></p><p>Reading over Bigby's Hand, I would drop it. Too many effects depend on your caster modifier. The only one that works really well for you is Interposing Hand (the Fist makes a spell attack, which is not so hot for this character; Forceful pushes zero feet; and Grasping's grapple check is decent, but the damage of the "crush" is bad -- 2d6-1 for this build). That Interposing Hand is holding things out of melee, which doesn't fit smoothly with this character's <em>modus operandi</em>. As this character, I doubt I would ever use my Concentration slot on this spell, so it might be seriously worth reconsidering and dropping. (Just my opinion, mind you.)</p><p></p><p>See above regarding Counterspell and the possibility of disappointment if the Sorcerer misses the guess on the incoming spell's level. The Sorcerer's trance won't help at all, here, as a misguessed Counterspell roll will always require a die roll of 15 or higher.</p><p></p><p>As I mentioned, this seems to be a favorite tactic of yours, but it's too DM- and environment-dependent for my tastes. And that's not to mention that the character as presented has no Darkvision, so is handicapped in many otherwise-stealth-friendly conditions. A less conditional tactic might be good to consider.</p><p></p><p>(Besides, it's usually the law-breakers that have to hide from the law-keepers and law-givers.) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Bigby's Hand, as mentioned, isn't too good for this character, I think. Add to that the fact that it competes with the Animate Objects or Polymorph for concentration, and . . . .</p><p></p><p>Quite decent control and versatility, yes.</p><p></p><p>While the image is entertaining, the limited application kills it for me. With a one-minute (two if extended) duration, that would be a short (in both range and duration) and expensive (in terms of character power during a day -- the Sorcerer's only fifth-, sixth-, or seventh-level spell slot) ride. (Yes, I know the 5th-level slot could be recovered by SP, but there is a lot of usage of those SP noted throughout the build.) Also, as a point of order, the sorcerer can't animate four large objects until it can use an 8th-level spell slot. A Huge object might just be able to carry a party of four, though, so it might be a moot point. Still, in an emergency of the right sort, it could be an excellent trick/tactic to have available.</p><p></p><p>Overall, it does sound like a fun (if off-the-beaten-path) build. I think it could use some tuning, though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="nogray, post: 8197370, member: 28028"] Good objective. Always a good idea to aim towards having fun. With that in mind, I hope you don't mind some (hopefully constructive and/or useful) feedback. I don't have a problem, [I]per se[/I], with Lawful Evil, though I do think a Mechanus-based character would more likely be Lawful Neutral, instead. Of course, a character is not limited to its inspiration. Still, the Lawful Evil makes me think more Devil than Modron/PC Inevitable, more evil lawyer than Judge Dredd. If the character is playing pure Eberron, the name feels off from the normal ones given for Warforged. That's no big deal, of course. Feeding into both of those (Judge Dredd and/or Inevitables as inspirations), the name "Gavel" could be cool. How did the Dex hit 18? Assuming point buy and Tasha's flexible scores, I could only get 17. (But then, I got a 16 Con without putting the Skill Expert attribute point into Con, so maybe that's just a typo? That must be it. The Skill Expert --> Dex fixes it.) With the Dex sorted, wouldn't the AC be 18 (13 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 1 Warforged) while Mage Armor was active? Either way, it certainly is an interesting stat array. To be honest, I am a bit disappointed to see the Stealth bit come back up, but that seems a favorite tactic of yours, and I certainly can't fault you for it, given its potential effectiveness. It's not strongly aligned with the mechanical/Mechanus theme, but it doesn't exactly fight against it. Dropping it could lead to some interesting tweaks, though. Party composition might be a deciding factor, here. At the moment, you don't have Seeking Spell. (Or at least it's not listed.) Even without it, the character is quite a reliable hitter during its Trance (to the point that it should almost never need Seeking Spell). If the Stealth tactic were dropped, the Sorcerer could swap the subtle for seeking (given the SP cost, I'm not sure that's a good swap) or for Empower or Distant (too many fun options for Sorcerer Metamagics), and that could also free up that ASI/Feat for something else and swap out a couple of spells. I don't know for what, precisely; just thinking. Don't know how I feel about the Dispel/Counterspell pair for this particular character. If the Sorcerer guesses incorrectly on the spell level, that Charisma penalty will definitely hurt it here. I'm not sure at the moment what else to choose, but the Sorcerer could still find frustration with that pair of spells combined with a low casting stat. Recheck the build's 4th-level spells. There is only one Clockwork-eligible spell (Polymorph). The others are conjuration, illusion, and evocation and are not on the Clockwork Spells list. That's not a legal set of 4th-level spells, as it currently stands. As one poster ([USER=5948]@humble minion[/USER]) pointed out, the build does have a lot of Concentration-demanding spells and quite a few Reactions, so thinning those might be something to consider. Not needed, but maybe useful. Without healer support, I was never confident in relying on Aid hit points. When it expires, those HP go away, and the Sorcerer could drop from that. It does have a lot of raw in-combat HP, though, as well as other defenses. It's a solid build in that regard. (Though to be fair, it is paying for them in spell slots and whatnot.) I would hesitate to call this character the greatest tank in the game, though. The Sorcerer has a lot of hit points in combat, but the lower hit die for the Sorcerer means that over the course of a long adventuring day, it might have fewer effective hit points than a beefier-hit-die character: a Bear-Barbarian for instance. Also, some of those hit points (Armor of Agathys) come from a 2-hour-duration spell (if extended). That only works well if the characters have a site-based set of encounters. For more overland-style adventuring, it might not be so good. The hit points are also in competition with polymorphing (same spell slots). In fact, two of the Sorcerer's three base level-4 spells are used up in prep, leaving only one for polymorphing (plus its level 5-7 slots, but those are claimed for other uses. Undoubtedly quite superior in that regard. I don't know about "several" times; from above, it looks like the Sorcerer spends a lot of its initial resources in that prep phase. I'd need to see your breakdown on what goes into the setup, especially vs. what sort of encounters you would want to spend some portion or all of this on defeating. That is a lot of resources, by my count, but then again, I could be missing something. It's quite a bit of setup, too, in terms of the action cost to get all that off. The payoff is pretty sweet, though. It'd be a tough nut to crack. Absent Quickening the Blade Ward (very cheap to do, I know), the resistance's action cost is really just taking the Sorcerer out of consideration for the combat. It's also not something the Sorcerer can do in its polymorphed forms, but you knew that already, I'm sure. Fire Shield being a 4th-level spell means that it is competing with that Armor of Agathys and Aid upcasts for slots (or the Polymorph cast). Reading over Bigby's Hand, I would drop it. Too many effects depend on your caster modifier. The only one that works really well for you is Interposing Hand (the Fist makes a spell attack, which is not so hot for this character; Forceful pushes zero feet; and Grasping's grapple check is decent, but the damage of the "crush" is bad -- 2d6-1 for this build). That Interposing Hand is holding things out of melee, which doesn't fit smoothly with this character's [I]modus operandi[/I]. As this character, I doubt I would ever use my Concentration slot on this spell, so it might be seriously worth reconsidering and dropping. (Just my opinion, mind you.) See above regarding Counterspell and the possibility of disappointment if the Sorcerer misses the guess on the incoming spell's level. The Sorcerer's trance won't help at all, here, as a misguessed Counterspell roll will always require a die roll of 15 or higher. As I mentioned, this seems to be a favorite tactic of yours, but it's too DM- and environment-dependent for my tastes. And that's not to mention that the character as presented has no Darkvision, so is handicapped in many otherwise-stealth-friendly conditions. A less conditional tactic might be good to consider. (Besides, it's usually the law-breakers that have to hide from the law-keepers and law-givers.) ;) Bigby's Hand, as mentioned, isn't too good for this character, I think. Add to that the fact that it competes with the Animate Objects or Polymorph for concentration, and . . . . Quite decent control and versatility, yes. While the image is entertaining, the limited application kills it for me. With a one-minute (two if extended) duration, that would be a short (in both range and duration) and expensive (in terms of character power during a day -- the Sorcerer's only fifth-, sixth-, or seventh-level spell slot) ride. (Yes, I know the 5th-level slot could be recovered by SP, but there is a lot of usage of those SP noted throughout the build.) Also, as a point of order, the sorcerer can't animate four large objects until it can use an 8th-level spell slot. A Huge object might just be able to carry a party of four, though, so it might be a moot point. Still, in an emergency of the right sort, it could be an excellent trick/tactic to have available. Overall, it does sound like a fun (if off-the-beaten-path) build. I think it could use some tuning, though. 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