D&D 5E Warlock Class Feature: Exploding Blast

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Do you also find it to be a problem that "attacking with a weapon" is the dominant strategy for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Rogues and Barbarians?

 

[Irda Ranger]

Do you also find it to be a problem that "attacking with a weapon" is the dominant strategy for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Rogues and Barbarians?

Would it bother you if Longswords did d10 damage and were the only weapon that you could add your Strength modifier to, or gain the benefit of the Fighter's class features?

My problem isn't that Warlocks use cantrips a lot. My problem is that Eldritch Blast is so much better than all the other Cantrips. I'm trying to make Poison Spray, Acid Splash, Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Fire Bolt, and Ray of Frost into equally viable choices.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not seeing how any of your proposed changes stops me from feeling eldritch blast is the best option. The other options close the gap a little (at the cost of an additional invocation) but eldritch blast is still vastly superior. Not only will it still do more single target damage on it's own but it can also function as a quasi-aoe cantrip when needed (splitting targets without the 5' apart requirement). Additionally it synergizes with hex much better.

There's just no easy way to supplant eldritch blast. You may can get something else to be situationally strong enough to sometimes be better than it but it's still going to be eldritch blast 70% of the time with a splash of something else iff you make that something else good enough.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm not seeing how any of your proposed changes stops me from feeling eldritch blast is the best option. The other options close the gap a little (at the cost of an additional invocation) but eldritch blast is still vastly superior. Not only will it still do more single target damage on it's own but it can also function as a quasi-aoe cantrip when needed (splitting targets without the 5' apart requirement). Additionally it synergizes with hex much better.

Well for one thing, I'm making this a class feature, not an Invocation. But otherwise you are correct that Eldritch Blast is really good. The point about Hex is also well taken. I've been expanding on my model for that.

The benefit though is that you don't have to split up your beams among targets. If the enemies are grouped together, you might could do full damage to four targets! That's why the DMG suggests a multiplier of 2x for this size AoE, since that's about average.

I'm experimenting with making it a 10' cube AoE, which the DMG suggests should be a 2x multiplier. Based on that, if you add Hex but not Agonizing Blast, Eldritch Blast is about equal to Fire Bolt. Here are the relative differences:

Without Hex:
2nd: +0
5th: +3
11th: +1.5
17th: +2

With Hex:
2nd: +0
5th: +3
11th: -2
17th: -5

So without Hex, "exploding" Fire Bolt comes out slightly ahead, and with Hex, "Exploding" Fire Bolt holds its own until 17th level.

There's just no easy way to supplant eldritch blast. You may can get something else to be situationally strong enough to sometimes be better than it but it's still going to be eldritch blast 70% of the time with a splash of something else iff you make that something else good enough.

Heh. I could easily make Fire Bolt "always way better" than Eldritch Blast; just add Agonizing Blast to the exploding damage too. It just would be unbalanced with the other classes. Here are the relative damage values if you add Agonizing Blast to "Exploding" Fire Bolt:

Exploding Fire Bolt + Agonizing Blast:
2nd: +0
5th: +11
11th: +11.5
17th: +12

Exploding Fire Bolt + Agonizing Blast + Hex:
2nd: +0
5th: +11
11th: +8
17th: +5

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm confused. I thought your goal was to make warlocks want to use other cantrips than eldritch blast. What your proposing buffs the other cantrips a little but still makes eldritch blast be hands down better probably 70% of the time.

 

[Ganymede81]

Instead of doing this, why not simply fix Eldritch Blast?

Wouldn't that be a lot easier than crafting other rules to work around the issues with Eldritch Blast?

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm confused. I thought your goal was to make warlocks want to use other cantrips than eldritch blast. What your proposing buffs the other cantrips a little but still makes eldritch blast be hands down better probably 70% of the time.

Eh? One of us is misunderstanding something.

My proposal would allow any "single target" Cantrip (which rules out Eldritch Blast) to "explode" into to a 4-square AoE attack. So your 5th level Fire Bolt still does 2d10, but it does 2d10 to a 10-foot cube, not to a single target. If you have Hex going you get 2d10+1d6 to each creature in the AoE.

The average damage from 2d10 is 11, and 2d10+1d6 averages to 14.5. For an AoE spell of that size the DMG says you could use a 2x modifier (because you have 1-4 targets, average of 2) to compare AoE with a single-target spell. So you average 22-29 damage per attack with an Exploding Fire Bolt. Sometime, when you can only get one person, it's 11-14, but when you can get four tightly grouped targets, you could theoretically do as much as 104 total damage! Not bad.

Eldritch Blast at the same level averages to 19-26 damage, depending on whether you have Hex going. You can split the beams so targets can be more than 5' apart, but you can't ever hit more than 2 targets.

So you can see that an Exploding Fire Bolt is slightly better, on average, than Eldritch Blast. At 11th level Fire Bolt is slightly worse at -2 HP/attack (on average), and at 17th level it's -5 HP/attack. I'm not sure it's really good enough yet, but I think it's close enough that no player would feel cheated by choosing it. Maybe you disagree?

If I added Agonizing Blast to the exploding cantrips though, you do Xd10+1d6+CHA to each target, which works out to being 8-12 HP/attack better than Eldritch Blast at all levels. That seems too good.

Cantrips like Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost will always do less damage, but they have secondary effects that Eldritch Bolt does not.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Instead of doing this, why not simply fix Eldritch Blast?

Wouldn't that be a lot easier than crafting other rules to work around the issues with Eldritch Blast?

Most people feel that the Warlock class is well balanced with the other classes right now, with Eldritch Blast the way it is. It's boring that every Warlock has the exact same Cantrip/Invocation combo, but it's effective. If I gimped Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast then the Warlock class would no longer be an effective combatant, since it's currently the only effective attack they can make once they've cast their 2 spells.

So since taking Eldritch Blast down a peg or two isn't an option, I'm trying to lift the other Cantrips up to its level.

Now the easiest fix is to make it a class feature of the Warlock that all their Cantrips, regardless of what the spell description says, create separate missiles and make separate attacks for each dice of damage they get. Split up Fire Bolt into 2-4 fire missiles, apply Agonizing Blast and Hex to each one, and boom, it's Eldritch Blast with a different damage type and the ability to set the drapes on fire. Whee!

But I thought this idea of Exploding Cantrips made the choice between Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast more interesting.

 

[Ganymede81]

Fire Bolt is not on the Warlock's spell list, tho.

 

[FrogReaver]

Eh? One of us is misunderstanding something.My proposal would allow any "single target" Cantrip (which rules out Eldritch Blast) to "explode" into to a 4-square AoE attack. So your 5th level Fire Bolt still does 2d10, but it does 2d10 to a 10-foot cube, not to a single target. If you have Hex going you get 2d10+1d6 to each creature in the AoE.The average damage from 2d10 is 11, and 2d10+1d6 averages to 14.5. For an AoE spell of that size the DMG says you could use a 2x modifier (because you have 1-4 targets, average of 2) to compare AoE with a single-target spell. So you average 22-29 damage per attack with an Exploding Fire Bolt. Sometime, when you can only get one person, it's 11-14, but when you can get four tightly grouped targets, you could theoretically do as much as 104 total damage! Not bad.Eldritch Blast at the same level averages to 19-26 damage, depending on whether you have Hex going. You can split the beams so targets can be more than 5' apart, but you can't ever hit more than 2 targets. So you can see that an Exploding Fire Bolt is slightly better, on average, than Eldritch Blast. At 11th level Fire Bolt is slightly worse at -2 HP/attack (on average), and at 17th level it's -5 HP/attack. I'm not sure it's really good enough yet, but I think it's close enough that no player would feel cheated by choosing it. Maybe you disagree?If I added Agonizing Blast to the exploding cantrips though, you do Xd10+1d6+CHA to each target, which works out to being 8-12 HP/attack better than Eldritch Blast at all levels. That seems too good.Cantrips like Shocking Grasp and Ray of Frost will always do less damage, but they have secondary effects that Eldritch Bolt does not.

You are understood but Eldritch blast is still better than all that in most circumstances most of the time. Focus fire is typically better than small aoe spells even if the aoe spell does slightly more total damage after all targets are accounted for (this is because focus fire) Couple that with eldritch blasts ability to be a decent two target aoe in its own right and I'm not seeing your proposed change as anything other than making a few cantrips situationally better than eldritch blast. its only when 3+ creatures can be caught in your air and no friendlys that your proposal is distinctly better than eldritch blast.