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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9449704" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Warlocks already get two cantrips by default and a third at level 4. You don't get this feature until level 6. If you can't find room for eldritch blast within three cantrips, especially given the paucity of Warlock utility cantrips, that sounds to me like someone specifically trying not to use it, rather than someone being fresh out of options. You also don't even get sacred flame until level 3 when you pick your subclass, so that would mean spending the first two levels...apparently without any damage cantrips because those aren't free either?Even if we give extremely lenient odds to the one and not the other, e.g. 80% failure on save vs. 50% success + 5% crit on EB, the average performance of EB is still going to be better. That's because any save-based cantrip is all or nothing, while EB can hit on any one of its two/three/four attacks. Even with those numbers, and scaled to appropriate values (e.g. +4 Cha mod), sacred flame is all of 0.3 damage higher than EB+AB. The moment you get a +5 modifier, EB+AB is strictly superior.Hex is mostly a trap at higher levels. You'll get much more bang for your buck from other uses, because hex doesn't scale with level--or, rather, it does, but only for duration, not benefit. Also, you're incorrectly calculating the damage sacred flame would do. It does not deal +Cha mod damage normally, Radiant Soul is what gives it +Cha damage at all. 2d8+Cha < 2d10+2xCha, and that's without accounting for critical hits, which sacred flame cannot do. Unless you're already spending an invocation to boost it further...but I'm not sure that works with sacred flame, because while you have it prepared, I don't think the text says that it becomes a Warlock cantrip for you. It's just a cantrip you happen to know, so the 5.5e Agonizing Blast couldn't be applied to it. That is, Pact of the Tome includes the text "...and they function as Warlock spells for you," whereas Celestial Spells (like every other such feature) does not say that the spells are, nor function as, Warlock spells for you. 5.5e Agonizing Blast explicitly requires that it be a Warlock cantrip.The third attack is when it becomes unequivocally better. It's marginally better at level 8, and essentially equal at levels 6 and 7 (when the feature comes online but you still have +4 Cha mod.)Except you will only get the wall of fire damage bonus one single time--hence why I said the feature is essentially worthless with that spell. If it were once per turn, then it would pair extremely well with wall of fire, but it is literally only once each time you cast a particular spell that deals fire or radiant damage. Hence why I say many things that could be useful just aren't, because Warlocks specifically thrive on continuing/repeated damage and sustained effects. Hence, it's only cantrips that have any real relevance here; doubly so because the whole point of Celestial is that you should be spending some of your slots on healing, not damage.There are only and exactly four utility cantrips in the Warlock spell list, in both 5.0 and 5.5e: friends, mage hand, minor illusion, and prestidigitation. That's it. In order to get to 6th level and have sacred flame as your only offensive option, you have to have gone for levels 1 and 2 with no offense cantrips at all, and have to have chosen not to get eldritch blast at level 4 when you pick up an additional cantrip. Given that friends is essentially worthless in most situations unless you genuinely never expect to interact with or hear from the target ever again, that would mean you'd have taken all three pure-utility cantrips, rather than taking the one Warlock-specific cantrip that benefits immensely from it. At that point, you aren't just choosing utility; you are actively avoiding doing damage, so we aren't even doing an apples to apples analysis anymore. It's a completely different playstyle at that point; predicating a damage analysis on "someone actively choosing to avoid strong damage options" is simply a different paradigm. It's not invalid in the least, but it's not appropriate to bring that up as a counterexample when the topic is how much damage is being done. Which is what was being talked about.Okay. I am looking solely at the Radiant Soul feature, and saying it's a pretty garbage feature because it has almost anti-synergy with the Warlock's kit. Which is what I said from the beginning.Except I do think so--and still chose Celestial Warlock both because I vastly prefer its theme over other patrons, and because I knew the healing/support spells and Healing Light would be extremely useful to our group (as I'm the only spellcaster and the only proper healer.) I can think that this one specific feature is garbage, while still thinking that Celestial Warlock as a whole is fun, thematic, and useful. Much as, for example, someone could see the Battle Master as a fun and engaging subclass, but find the 5.0 version of Know Your Enemy to be worthless garbage. (The 5.5e one is much better--not a great feature, mind, but it's now actually useful as opposed to being little more than a gatekeeper for pure roleplay.)</blockquote>

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